I don't think super chlorination would cause foamy bubbles but algaecide certainly will.
cost/benefit shocking pool
- Thread starter iam4iam
- Start date
You should be able to find an ammonia test kit at Walmart in the pet department. Maybe around $15 to $20 or so.iam4iam said:
Also, there are some pet stores that will do free ammonia test.
You can use google search, bottom left of page.
Dear iam4iam,
Let me offer my 2 cents or experience on this post as I have ~ the same size pool, nasty water issues (now gone), and tried to hold onto my old ideas until I got tired of wasting money on my "rational thought process". Ya gotta kill the algae...period. That is the one and only thing to concentrate on at this time. Only way to kill tha algae (cost effective), is what is being described. The ONLY way to get and stay at shock level is to know where you are...(just purchase the TF-100), dose per the pool-calc, and stay on it!! I will tell you by my experience that all I had to do were these very simple basic steps and WOW...clear, clean pool. Just follow the shock process so you can then do to the next issue IF you have one. Probally don't....but you may have a dead moose sitting on the bottom!!
Now about the cost of bleach and throwing $500 at the pool.....what are your other options?? Like me, I spent way over that amount last year on just getting the #%&@ thing clear. I will almost bet you bleach bill, that you will spend only a fraction of the cost on cheap, store brand bleach than you would any other chemical/process. Go to Costco, Sam's, Target, Walmart or any other discount store and buy the store brand (if available) in 184 oz containers. Costco in my area has a 3-184oz case for less than $9.....bleach is cheap. And yes, it will feel as if you are adding a ton of bleach at first....it slows down fast as you kill the little bleach eating rascals and gain on this thing.
I had the same foam you described. Turns out it went away just about as fast as it appeared over my whole pool!! Like they said, test, dose, brush, repeat.......it really is that simple!!
Keep up the faith.....what ya got to loose??
Samiguy
Let me offer my 2 cents or experience on this post as I have ~ the same size pool, nasty water issues (now gone), and tried to hold onto my old ideas until I got tired of wasting money on my "rational thought process". Ya gotta kill the algae...period. That is the one and only thing to concentrate on at this time. Only way to kill tha algae (cost effective), is what is being described. The ONLY way to get and stay at shock level is to know where you are...(just purchase the TF-100), dose per the pool-calc, and stay on it!! I will tell you by my experience that all I had to do were these very simple basic steps and WOW...clear, clean pool. Just follow the shock process so you can then do to the next issue IF you have one. Probally don't....but you may have a dead moose sitting on the bottom!!
Now about the cost of bleach and throwing $500 at the pool.....what are your other options?? Like me, I spent way over that amount last year on just getting the #%&@ thing clear. I will almost bet you bleach bill, that you will spend only a fraction of the cost on cheap, store brand bleach than you would any other chemical/process. Go to Costco, Sam's, Target, Walmart or any other discount store and buy the store brand (if available) in 184 oz containers. Costco in my area has a 3-184oz case for less than $9.....bleach is cheap. And yes, it will feel as if you are adding a ton of bleach at first....it slows down fast as you kill the little bleach eating rascals and gain on this thing.
I had the same foam you described. Turns out it went away just about as fast as it appeared over my whole pool!! Like they said, test, dose, brush, repeat.......it really is that simple!!
Keep up the faith.....what ya got to loose??
Samiguy
iam4iam said:
The test kit will tell you where you are at, the pool calculator will tell you what you need to do when you get there. Algae eats chlorine. Killing them takes a while. They are trying to grow and are really good at it. You have to disturb them with the brush, you have to filter the floating debris out, and you need to keep hammering them with chlorine.
I don't know what I have spent so far, but it is not anywhere near $500. I was buying the pool shock stuff from Wal-Mart and blindly just dumping stuff in and trying to get a reading on my little Wal Mart 5-drop test kit. All that was telling me was that my dark yellow was way beyond a swimmable pool. I got my test kit, and found I was basically right in the range of what these guys suggested for the shock range, and though I haven't been diligent in checking day and night, my pool has somewhat leveled off and I have spent way under $100 in bleach... probably less than $50 at the moment. I have an issue with not being able to easily vacuum my pool, and if I had been able to backwash my filter, I am sure we'd be swimming right now. As it looks, I am probably another week out on doing that.
I was frustrated, too. I was standing on the edge of the pool just mad and overwhelmed, but you have to keep on, there really isn't another option. Eventually you crest the hill and it's a pretty good feeling.
The simple reason your FC level isn't getting as high as it should is because chlorine is getting used up very quickly breaking down some kind of organic waste in the water. The obvious possibility is algae, but it could also be ammonia in the water or something along those lines.
I've already used over $50. Observations this morning bring up another question that might rule one possibility out:
Regarding the possible concern about ammonia, my pH reading this morning appears under 7 (albeit with a test strip ... don't worry, I've ordered a TF-100 kit!). Wouldn't ammonia raise the pH, or am I basing this idea on "rusty" chemistry?
Also, I was pleased to see FC level between 5-10 ppm this morning (again, test strip ...), but that's the highest measurement I've seen, even if not close to my goal shock level. It's still at 3-5ppm after several hours of direct sunlight (seems dubious since I don't think CYA is very high ... can't wait for test kit!).
Regarding the possible concern about ammonia, my pH reading this morning appears under 7 (albeit with a test strip ... don't worry, I've ordered a TF-100 kit!). Wouldn't ammonia raise the pH, or am I basing this idea on "rusty" chemistry?
Also, I was pleased to see FC level between 5-10 ppm this morning (again, test strip ...), but that's the highest measurement I've seen, even if not close to my goal shock level. It's still at 3-5ppm after several hours of direct sunlight (seems dubious since I don't think CYA is very high ... can't wait for test kit!).
I didn't think I had much of a hill to begin with, since I could see 3-5 ft deep as soon as we took the cover off. The fact that not much has changed is the real reason I'm so frustrated.
Adding ammonia to the water would raise the PH from whatever it started at, but the final PH could be just about anything.
samiguy said:
Was your "rational thought process" the same as mine, namely to only shock at night and not "waste" bleach by trying to maintain shock level during the day? It appears that the sun "eats" the chlorine faster than the algae, at least at my apparently low level of CYA. Besides, except on the weekends, I'm not even home during the day anyway.
Bottom line is I definitely understand what everyone is saying by "maintain" shock level, but I'm still held back by the following:
1) I still have a hard time accepting that is practical at the rate the sun destroys the chlorine to maintain shock level during the day. I would estimate that it would take several hundred dollars of bleach on a hot sunny day.
2) It just isn't feasible for me to do during the day since I work.
3) Now I feel like I should wait for my test kit
Here's are more questions that just occurred to me:
1) Given how much bleach I've already used without seeing significant visible results, should I even be concerned about getting my FC level too high?
2) Isn't higher FC better unless it's so high that it can potentially damage the equipment?
3) How high is too high? (I'd probably have to pour in 1000's of gallons of bleach into the pool in front of a return port to create the same danger to my equipment that I already created by pouring 10 x 96 oz. of bleach straight into the skimmer before I knew better. For all I know, the damage that did, if any, will hit me down the road, though.)
1) Given how much bleach I've already used without seeing significant visible results, should I even be concerned about getting my FC level too high?
2) Isn't higher FC better unless it's so high that it can potentially damage the equipment?
3) How high is too high? (I'd probably have to pour in 1000's of gallons of bleach into the pool in front of a return port to create the same danger to my equipment that I already created by pouring 10 x 96 oz. of bleach straight into the skimmer before I knew better. For all I know, the damage that did, if any, will hit me down the road, though.)
Here are a few pictures to give you an idea of what I'm looking at. (Definitely not a "lagoon." I think the pictures make it look a little greener than it actually is.)
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Maybe you should wait for your test kit to arrive. It is not practical to shock the pool when CYA is near zero for just the reasons you outline (though I think you exaggerated just a little 
). Once CYA is around 30 or higher, it is very practical to maintain shock level during the day.
Adding chlorine once in the evening to shock level should be enough to keep things from getting any worse.
Very high FC levels tend to cause corrosion of metal exposed to the high FC water and will greatly shorten the life of vinyl.
). Once CYA is around 30 or higher, it is very practical to maintain shock level during the day.Adding chlorine once in the evening to shock level should be enough to keep things from getting any worse.
Very high FC levels tend to cause corrosion of metal exposed to the high FC water and will greatly shorten the life of vinyl.
I guess part of the puzzle is that as CYA increases, so does the amount of chlorine required to reach shock level. Does it boil down mathematically to the fact that the amount of Cl required doesn't increase as fast as CYA? In other words, for example, at CYA=50 you need to use 2x more chlorine than at CYA=20. Can I reason that because 50 is more than 2x20, at CYA=50 you come out ahead? (But that would only be in the daytime. At night, the CYA has no advantage if I understand correctly, so you'd also have to factor in that while you might be using less during the day, you'll be using more at night.)
In other words, assuming the positive effect of CYA in "stabalizing" is proportional to the level of CYA, I can see how you might come out ahead during the day with more CYA. But this advantage might be canceled out at night. Does that make sense? I might be over-analyzing. It's in my blood. I'm a math teacher!
Another mathematical quandry is why not just bring FC to double shock level (say 40 ppm with CYA = 50)? Then wait until FC drops to 20 and take it back to 40. Same basic process, but with an FC shock goal twice as high. Wouldn't that make the process go faster? Is it because in the long run FC levels even at "normal" shock levels may reduce vinyl lifespan, so we don't want to take it higher than necessary?
BTW, I don't think CYA is as low as I thought. I still have enough FC after a full "mostly sunny" day to register on the test strip. (Every other evening I got 0 on the test strip. Must be because I put more Cl in last night than I had any night prior.)
In other words, assuming the positive effect of CYA in "stabalizing" is proportional to the level of CYA, I can see how you might come out ahead during the day with more CYA. But this advantage might be canceled out at night. Does that make sense? I might be over-analyzing. It's in my blood. I'm a math teacher!
Another mathematical quandry is why not just bring FC to double shock level (say 40 ppm with CYA = 50)? Then wait until FC drops to 20 and take it back to 40. Same basic process, but with an FC shock goal twice as high. Wouldn't that make the process go faster? Is it because in the long run FC levels even at "normal" shock levels may reduce vinyl lifespan, so we don't want to take it higher than necessary?
BTW, I don't think CYA is as low as I thought. I still have enough FC after a full "mostly sunny" day to register on the test strip. (Every other evening I got 0 on the test strip. Must be because I put more Cl in last night than I had any night prior.)
Like many things it is always a little more complicated than it appears on the surface
Adding some CYA in before shocking helps not only from sun protection, but CYA also sort of buffers the available chlorine
As to why not just dump in all the chlorine as once and go to twice shock level, there are 2 things
1, the extremely high chlorine levels are hard on pool liners and equipment, and 2 it will cost you more as your chlorine loss and the rate it kills algae are not exactly linear (again you have multiple factors at play, so twice as strong does not equal kill twice as fast, one factor here is the formation protective "biofilm")
Adding some CYA in before shocking helps not only from sun protection, but CYA also sort of buffers the available chlorine
As to why not just dump in all the chlorine as once and go to twice shock level, there are 2 things
1, the extremely high chlorine levels are hard on pool liners and equipment, and 2 it will cost you more as your chlorine loss and the rate it kills algae are not exactly linear (again you have multiple factors at play, so twice as strong does not equal kill twice as fast, one factor here is the formation protective "biofilm")
LOL..yep!! Kinda, sorta...same thought process!! ONCE I finally got in in my head that the shock number was a minimum that I had to stay above...all the pieces started to come together. The one big piece that you are/were missing are good numbers from a test that is accurate. Congrats on the TF-100! Once you get those going and a few recorded numbers under your belt, you will see the trends of your pool and what it will take, without over-dose to your pool. I did suffer from the same brain lock and these fine folks coached me thru the process! My pool was black!! Just do what the pool-calc tells you to do, rely on these folks, and try not to "over-think" this process. It really is so simple that I often time "out-smarted" myself.
I do understand this is your first pool, as is mine. You are way ahead of the curve by using these resources and won't throw away tons of money as many have.....mostly me!
If you need to hang on to a novice/rookie, just drop me a line! Been there, done that!!
Now relax and get ready to enjoy and wonderul pool !!!
I do understand this is your first pool, as is mine. You are way ahead of the curve by using these resources and won't throw away tons of money as many have.....mostly me!
If you need to hang on to a novice/rookie, just drop me a line! Been there, done that!!
Now relax and get ready to enjoy and wonderul pool !!!
Hi there. I am also a first year, new-to-pool-school person who was flying blind. Because I hadn't started posting on TFP until AFTER I started the process, I went heavy on the bleach to maintain a state of shock and for a few days used color as my guide until the test kit came in and things really became more clear (in every sense, to me, to the pool water, etc.
I don't think I saw you mention it in your post, but you're backwashing frequently, right? Every time the filter is about 25% above it's normal operating psi (mine is normally in 15-20 range, it's a sand filter, hayworth, and likely same as yours as my pool is similar in size.) Mine was a swamp from a foreclosure, so at first I seriously had to backwash every half hour, but things got better rather quickly. During work day I came home at lunch to shock and to backwash in the beginning.
Just so you know, while I am now going to continue a little longer to clean up some organic staining, it took me about 12 days, constant filtering, and 58 gallons of bleach to date -- way more on the front end...much easier to maintain now. I am attaching pics to show you the color change (no pics from the weekend however until after the vacuuming to waste work on Monday).
Hope that helps. Perhaps you have your kit by now and are ready to hit hard, or perhaps you're already there. Do let us know, because this helps the next googler (And I resembled that remark)
So in terms of bleach cost, I think you're going to be fine with less than $100 worth since your pool is about the same size as mine and your filter sounds like mine (Hayward 220T sand). Be sure to clean out those baskets to keep it filtering well and backwash and keep the water level up and otherwise let TIME + BLEACH + TESTING do the work! Best wishes!
[attachment=0:2yn4wk3a]12DaysofShockandAwe.jpg[/attachment:2yn4wk3a]
I don't think I saw you mention it in your post, but you're backwashing frequently, right? Every time the filter is about 25% above it's normal operating psi (mine is normally in 15-20 range, it's a sand filter, hayworth, and likely same as yours as my pool is similar in size.) Mine was a swamp from a foreclosure, so at first I seriously had to backwash every half hour, but things got better rather quickly. During work day I came home at lunch to shock and to backwash in the beginning.
Just so you know, while I am now going to continue a little longer to clean up some organic staining, it took me about 12 days, constant filtering, and 58 gallons of bleach to date -- way more on the front end...much easier to maintain now. I am attaching pics to show you the color change (no pics from the weekend however until after the vacuuming to waste work on Monday).
Hope that helps. Perhaps you have your kit by now and are ready to hit hard, or perhaps you're already there. Do let us know, because this helps the next googler
(And I resembled that remark)So in terms of bleach cost, I think you're going to be fine with less than $100 worth since your pool is about the same size as mine and your filter sounds like mine (Hayward 220T sand). Be sure to clean out those baskets to keep it filtering well and backwash and keep the water level up and otherwise let TIME + BLEACH + TESTING do the work! Best wishes!
[attachment=0:2yn4wk3a]12DaysofShockandAwe.jpg[/attachment:2yn4wk3a]
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Thanks for sharing, Swampwoman!
I just got my kit this afternoon. Even though I haven't added any bleach since Monday evening, I can see deeper today than I could yesterday, which suggests that the filter is maybe just taking a long time to clear out what has been killed. I can actually see the bottom at the deep end now!
As for backwashing, I've only needed to after vacuuming. As far as when it's needed, I think I read on this site to wait until 10 psi over "normal" pressure. I do admit, though, that it makes more sense use a % as a guide. My "clear" pressure is 13-14 psi. Other thoughts out there on using % change in psi as a guide for backwashing?
Here's a question for experienced CYA testers:
I wanted to test CYA before returning the pool to shock level. I performed the test twice just to be sure, but I can still see the block dot when the CYA viewer is full. I thought I had some stabilizer, since I still had some FC present yesterday evening, even though I hadn't added any for 24 hours (although I had added enough to bring it so 20 ppm). I assume some was lost overnight killing algae, but I would have thought there would be none left after a day of sunlight. This evening, FC is indeed near 0 ppm (while CC is 2-3 ppm, which tells me I'm obviously not finished). Anyway, is it possible I've done the test wrong, or do I need to get some more CYA in the pool?
Another question for experienced testers:
Unless I'm color blind, my CH is off the charts! I stopped at 100 drops! Is "blue" actually purple?
I just got my kit this afternoon. Even though I haven't added any bleach since Monday evening, I can see deeper today than I could yesterday, which suggests that the filter is maybe just taking a long time to clear out what has been killed. I can actually see the bottom at the deep end now!
As for backwashing, I've only needed to after vacuuming. As far as when it's needed, I think I read on this site to wait until 10 psi over "normal" pressure. I do admit, though, that it makes more sense use a % as a guide. My "clear" pressure is 13-14 psi. Other thoughts out there on using % change in psi as a guide for backwashing?
Here's a question for experienced CYA testers:
I wanted to test CYA before returning the pool to shock level. I performed the test twice just to be sure, but I can still see the block dot when the CYA viewer is full. I thought I had some stabilizer, since I still had some FC present yesterday evening, even though I hadn't added any for 24 hours (although I had added enough to bring it so 20 ppm). I assume some was lost overnight killing algae, but I would have thought there would be none left after a day of sunlight. This evening, FC is indeed near 0 ppm (while CC is 2-3 ppm, which tells me I'm obviously not finished). Anyway, is it possible I've done the test wrong, or do I need to get some more CYA in the pool?
Another question for experienced testers:
Unless I'm color blind, my CH is off the charts! I stopped at 100 drops! Is "blue" actually purple?
Yep, Swampwoman is correct.
We recommend a filter cleaning when psi has a 25% rise over clean filter psi.
You likely need to get more CYA in the pool, just be aware it can take a week or more before it shows up on the test, so don't over shoot.
Ike
Ike
Good to know. I'm at 20 psi now and clean is just under 15, so I'm due!
How can I know just how low my CYA is? Since pool store is closed, should I just shock tonight with dichlor from Walmart? My pH is right at the bottom of goal range (7.2), so should I add some washing soda first or worry about balancing pH later?
Now that I can see the bottom (barely), I'm going to vacuum some (not much, but at least I can see the bottom now!) I'll check back later!
Any ideas on CH? Is it really supposed to turn blue (not purple)?
How can I know just how low my CYA is? Since pool store is closed, should I just shock tonight with dichlor from Walmart? My pH is right at the bottom of goal range (7.2), so should I add some washing soda first or worry about balancing pH later?
Now that I can see the bottom (barely), I'm going to vacuum some (not much, but at least I can see the bottom now!) I'll check back later!
Any ideas on CH? Is it really supposed to turn blue (not purple)?
Dichlor will add Chlorine and CYA plus will slighlty drop pH, if your going to use it then you will want to boost your pH a bit if your near the bottom of the range. With your size pool and a low CYA reading your probably safe with using up to about 10 pounds total (not at once) of dichlor before you have to worry about it raising your CYA excessively. (10 pounds of dichlor will raise your CYA by 29 ppm, assuming yours is less than 20ppm now, maybe 10ppm another 29 ppm would put you right around 40 ppm which is the ballpark you want to be in when you finish shocking.
Ike
p.s. this assumes you have not been using any stabilized chlorine in the last few days that may not have shown up on your CYA test yet
Ike
p.s. this assumes you have not been using any stabilized chlorine in the last few days that may not have shown up on your CYA test yet