Considering switch from LC to a SWG - Questions

[Bill1974]

Becasue of the cost of LC these days and the fun of lugging it around I think SWG will be money well spent and a time saver.

Recommended brands & models?
Size: From what I have read as big as I can afford. Is there such a things as to big? I most larger one are is the 50K to 60K gallon range. Anything else to consider?

Location: NY, Long Island (11788 to be percise)
Pool: ~32K gallons, vinyl, (20' X 40'), in the sun from ~9AM to ~6-7 PM
Pump: Single speed 1-1/2HP runs 6-8 hr a day. (I know a variable speed one would save me on electric, maybe when the motor craps out or the incentives make it hard to pass up)
Chlorine usage: Generally at the peak of the summer, I am going through a half gallon of 11%-12% bleach a day. Currently using a Stenner pump for dosing. How does this corrolate to what a SWG outputs?

Keeping pool chemistry is check is pretty easy, as long as I don't let the chlorine tank go empty. The past few years I can provided the weather isn't wacky, I rarely need to check the chemicals more than once a week or every other week. I'd check after there has been a lot fo use in the pool or if there has been severe weather. Most of the time I don't need to adjust anything, and when I do it's only slightly.

Am I reading it right, that if my water has zero salt that i would need almost a 1000lbs to get the ~3500 ppm? I am sure it's not zero, it was last filled 3 years ago, what would you guy guess the current salt level is?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

For your pool, you'll need a unit rated for 60,000 gallons. If you've been managing a Stenner system, you should have no issues with managing a SWG.  Periodic output changes are required as the season changes.

I didn't do the math on how much salt would be required, but your pool likely has a good base amount of salt. Chlorine and other chemicals add salt as a byproduct.

I added a swg after two full years of pool ownership. At that time my salt level was about 1200 ppm.

Scroll down to the related links for more information.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Bill,

If you have a single speed pump, you will want a 60K cell. The idea is that you can run your pump for shorter period of time and still generate the amount of FC your pool will need.

I suspect your pool already has 2000 ppm of salt.

Assuming your pool had zero salt, to get to 3200ppm you'd need to add about 22 bags or 880 lbs. You never want to add all the salt at the same time, you want to sneak up on the salt level you want.

You will want a Taylor K-1766 salt test kit. You never want to rely on what the cell says the salt level is..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

I forgot to provide recommendations. Since you are looking at a unit rated at 60,000 gallons, you have only a few choices. Three that come to mind are the Pentair IC60, the Circupool RJ-60+, and the Pureline unit from Inyo Pools. I'm real happy with my Circupool RJ-45+.

 

[newdude]

At 32k gallons the SWG will pay for itself a couple times over. It's breaking even around 10k gallon pools these days, for a full (spendy) PB install. DIY-ers can probably break even at 7500 gallons.

I would guess your salt is still fairly low. We have short seasons and about 4 ft of precipitation a year. But salt is cheap so it won't break the bank. 18 bags is only $144 at $8 each. (HD's price which was the best I found)

I would have gone 3X in a heartbeat if they made a residential unit that big. A 60k unit will do great here, but upsizing gets far more lifespan than it costs. It's like buying a an extra 20k unit for 80% off. Going from 20k to 40k gets 100% more lifespan for 20% more cost, but that's too small for us. Lol.

This $519 3HP pump will pay for itself QUICK, especially with out electric rates. Then it will pay for itself a 2nd, 3rd and maybe even 4th time.

The circupool RJ-60 is about $300 cheaper than the Pentair IC60. They are comparable with output/quality and the RJ-60 has a better warranty.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

This $519 3HP pump will pay for itself QUICK, especially with out electric rates. Then it will pay for itself a 2nd, 3rd and maybe even 4th time

This is great advice. If you do happen to move forward with this pump, make sure you order the $35 automation interface kit. This will allow you to operate the pump remotely using your Wi-Fi relays. No need for the contactor.

 

[dradam]

For SWCG I like pentair intellichlor. I believe that biggest is better. Less run time -- More cl-, increases FCL sooner and will last longer. Pentairs products are pricey and imperfect but they all integrate well. Control system, Intellichlor , pumps, and intellichem which monitors you PH and ORP ( which indicates your FCL level). TFP hates intellichem, but I love it. You need to be an enthusiast and rember a bit of your old acid /base chemistry. The only bucket I fill is muriatic acid about every 4-6 weeks. Look up diy Pentair pool automation to learn more. The article is toward the botom of the thread.

Best wishes.

 

[jamesey]

+1 to what @Newdude said. I upgraded to both the 3 hp Calimar and RJ-60+ at the same time and my pool season has been an absolute delight. No more hauling LC all over town and getting bleach stains on my clothes. I’m a month in and all I’ve done so far is add a small amount of muriatic acid. Simply awesome

 

[newdude]

OK Bill. I had a minute to run numbers for you.

1 gallon of 10% is 3.1 FC in 32k gallons

$5 jug = $1.61 per FC
$6 jug = $1.94 per FC
$7 jug = $2.26 per FC

Circupool appears to overstate its production levels so let's use the RJ-60 at a very conservative 2.0 lbs of chlorine per day and 10k hours. That's also conveniently the Pentair IC60's output.

So the RJ 60 will produce 7.5 FC per day, (in 32k gallons) or 3125 lifetime FC, for $1675. Add $500 for a comfortable DIY estimate, or double the price for a fair professional install estimate .

DIY = $0.70 per FC
PB = $1.07 per FC.

The next 2+ cells won't need the $500 controller or the $500/$1675 install and will cut the production costs by over half. In the case of the PB install, it will be by 2/3. You'll be producing somewhere in the low 30s cents per FC.

Fun fact. Each cell saves you from lugging 1008 jugs. ***Let that sink in*** At $5 each they will cost $1690 more than the full pro install. At our current 8.88% sales tax, you'll save $146.19 in sales tax, which will buy you the bags of salt you need to start.

 

[Homebrewale]

What about the gasoline to drive to pick up the 1008 jugs?

 

[jamesey]

Plus snacks. You always buy snacks during LC runs

 

[newdude]

What about the gasoline to drive to pick up the 1008 jugs?

There's intangibles such as this. Many times the person will get LC while they're already out, but you just know there will also be many times it's their reason to go out.

Or the intangible of the size of the smile on my face, when all I have to do is press a button, *once*, for more chlorine.

 

[Bill1974]

Everyone, thanks for the input. My pickup only gets 11.5 mpg empty, loaded it's not much worse. I usually buy 6 cases at a time. 1008 gallons of chlorine would be around 13-15 years of use. I open my pool mid/late May and close it mid/late September. I think I use 65-75 gallons a year. And It looks like chlorine is going for ~$6/gallon now.

Can I really expect 10+ years out a SWG cell? I was guessing 5-7 based on what I have read other have been getting out of theirs.

Honestly the worst part is lugging the LC from the driveway to the pool. And it's said how many bottles I go through, at least they get recycles. It would be nice if one of the local chemical distrutiors would let me buy LC in 5 to 30 gallon containers but they have not been interested. I would even do a 55 gallon drum, just a pain to handle.

I'll be doing the install myself. I think I have a long enough section of pipe that it should only take a few mintures to install. I may remove the puck chlorinator or change it to an offline one if needed.

 

[newdude]

Can I really expect 10+ years out a SWG cell?

With our short seasons, it's very possible. I bring mine inside for the winter on the off chance it might help long term not being buried in a snow drift.

Honestly the worst part is lugging the LC from the driveway to the pool.

That's it. Picking up several cases isn't too bad, heck, some places even load it for you. But the jugs go to the pool one at a time. Lol.

I may remove the puck chlorinator

You're going to be right there cutting and gluing. If you don't remove it, it starts leaking 1 month later, per Murphys.

Tab floaters are $14 if you ever need.

 

[wayner]

Can I really expect 10+ years out a SWG cell? I was guessing 5-7 based on what I have read other have been getting out of theirs.

I am in Toronto and have my pool open about five months per year. I have a Jandy 1400 system. My pool is 17 years old and I have had to replace the salt cell about every five years. But I have not had to replace the main controller for the unit. The cells have just gotten much more expensive. They are now around $1000. I bought a generic replacement last year for $400.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I bought a generic replacement last year for $400.

W,

I guess we will know if that was a good decision in a year or two..

Most OEM cells last 5 to 7 years.. Not sure we have a good read on off-brand replacements yet.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[wayner]

The breakeven will be 2-3 years as the price is about 40% of the original. The thing I like about the replacement is that it is see-through plastic. When the cell is on I can see the little bubbles. Presumably this will also make it easier to see if the cell is starting to get a buildup of calcium or whatever it is.

These have gone up a lot in price in the last few years. Here is a thread from 2004 when they were selling for around $450: What's the best place to buy Jandy Salt Cells?

 

[Bill1974]

I've been doing a little math and wondering if my logic and number are right.

Using about 1/2 gallon of 12% LC a day is about .6 lb of Cl (I think a gallon of LC weighs about 10 lbs)

The RJ-60 can output 3.1lbs/day
.6/3.1= .1935 days or 4.645 hours @ 100%

If I run my pump 8 hours a day and the SWG runs the same time I would need to run it at 58% to get .6 lbs of chlorine. WIth these numbers I see where a variable/multi speed pump really make a difference.

Also, the RJ-60 claims 15,000 hour lifespan. Is that at 100%? If it's run at 50% does that extend the life? Does it extend it to 30,000 hours? Is the output of SWG consistent thoughouts it's life and then it dies or does the output deminish over time? I would assume the later. If the output goes down over time, I can see where a variable speed pump could also help get the most out of cell before it can't output enough chlorine to maintain a pool. Typically how much loss in output is there from year to year?

 

[newdude]

Using about 1/2 gallon of 12% LC a day is about .6 lb of Cl (I think a gallon of LC weighs about 10 lbs)

Different pounds. You need to convert both to FC in pool math. So 1 gal of 10% gets you 3.1 FC and 2lbs of chlorine gas is 7.5 FC per 24 hours of an IC60 'on'.

I use the IC60 because it appears CP overstates their production, so I like to be conservative. If the RJ-60 ends up producing 2.5 or 2.8 lbs per 24, or produces for 5k extra hours, then woo freaking hoo.

Also, the RJ-60 claims 15,000 hour lifespan. Is that at 100%?

Yes. Or any maths equivalent. If you run at 50% that's the same as 30k hours passing. But again, I like to use the industry standard of 10k hours and anything seen above that is gravy. 8 hours at 100% and 16 hours at 50% both take 8 hours off the SWG lifespan. (Etc etc etc). The VS pump saves the RPM difference of running throughout. Mine for example pulls 200W at 1500 RPMs where I like it. A SS pump would be 1800W (?).

Using the (very) conservative 2lbs and 10k hours, the RJ60 will produce 3125 FC in its lifespan, divided by 3.1 FC per gallon of 10% (for you), means it's the equivalent of 1008 jugs. At Walmarts current price of $5.67 per jug, LC will cost you $5716 for the same lifetime FV as a RJ60. Even at a full PB install of $3600, you'd make out big. Future cells don't have the $1600 (?) Install cost or the $500 controller saving a stupid amount of money.

Disclaimers : a power surge could put you belly up on year 2, or LC could fall to $1.88 a gallon to change the equation.