considering swg

[Jeff.williams]

Guys -

I have a pool that is currently using CALHYPO 73%, 12.5% liquid bleach, no trichlor or stabilized chlorine due to the CYA issues associated with it, CYA is kept at around 35 PPM, CA around 280 (pebble pool), TA around 90, PH around 7.5 to 7.2. You can see my test logs when you click on my profile. This has been a battle keeping chlorine in the pool this year here in SE TX. The pool is 91F and I know that the CYA being kept lower is of course causing my chlorine levels to drop daily and weekly. I want to keep the CA and CYA lower and not fight chlorine lock with stabilized chlorine tabs so, I do not use it and as a result I am spending too much of my time maintaining this pool. I have order the sense and dispense system from Hayward directly, as I am also a consultant and pool builder here in TX. I waited for the update to the OmniLogic software to come out that supports the new liquid chlorine injection system vs. the older sense and dispense that only did SWG and acid injection. I have started to second guess this logic, as I this whole thing has become a big pain in the rear end. I know the results of using bleach in the liquid form will raise salt levels so why not just use a SWG and lower my maintenance touch time on this pool? I also know that I am about to reach the limit on my pool's ability to use CALHYPO due to calcium limits approaching my limits. I will not use stabilizes chlorine due to the issues with CYA and chlorine lock... I do not want to drain the pool when we finally get above about 60 PPM of CYA so, I have chosen to just not use the stabilized chlorine. The pool has OK and TX flagstone in beach entries and sun shelves so I am a little hesitant to move to salt and use the SWG but I am adding salt with each gallon of 12.5% liquid chlorine that I pour in... Any thoughts?



Pool data:
Consultant on custom home building, custom, higher end pools, and automation.

Pool - 40,000 gallons, Infiniti Edge, SPA, Pebble Sheen, Blue Surf
Equipment: OmniLogic with all expansion modules, direct network connection, 5 VS950(s), HSP30060 Booster Pump, Polaris Qauttro Sport, 8 Hayward actuators, Hayward C7030 Cartridge Filter, LACUN150 Colorlogic LED lights (x16), Hayward WFL100 Laminar(s) with lights x4, Hayward WFB100 Bubbler with LED x2, Pentair ETI-400 Titanium heat exchanger condensing heater, 2 HP blower, Sense and Dispense for liquid chlorine and acid on order, to be installed... 3 pumps (1) pool pump, 1 catch basin pump, 1 booster pump on backup generator power...I think this is about it...

 

[HermanTX]

Well this will be a good conversation to follow as I am doing manual liquid chlorine (have not used Calhypo) and considering the same debate however not sure how I can plumb in a SWG to my existing system without major replumbing. I do not know what a Sense & Dispense system is so would like to learn more of that.
I think you will hear from most the salt generation is so low that really nothing to worry about but I let them provide their own commentary on that.

 

[Bvacchiano]

Not sure how flagstone will handle SWG but I’d rather hack my foot off with an axe than not have an SWG in HOUSTON. I have pretty much all travertine and haven’t seen A SPECK of damage. I want ease not make my pool my second full time job.....

 

[geko29]

Running (and holding) your CYA a little higher (like maybe 50) would go a long way towards reducing the amount of futzing you have to do. Not saying that means switch to stabilized chlorine for regular care, but to put things in perspective, my CYA target in Chicago was 40 before I installed my SWG this year, and it worked very well. But if I were in Houston, I would have been looking at 50 or maybe even 60 due to the intense sun/heat.

Now that I have an SWG, I set my CYA at 70 and just let it ride. Could not be happier.

 

[Oly]

I will chime in because I too want to watch this thread progress.
I also run the SWG pros and cons as I ponder FC production and the rising price of liquid.
CYA does degrade and you may see your levels decrease over time. Others in TX report best results with 50ppm CYA.
With your pool volume of 40K it would take over 12 trichlor tabs to raise your CYA by 10ppm. 12 tabs also provide nearly 17ppm FC and are acidic so will lower your pH by .07 for each tab.

I use liquid with a CYA of 30ppm and have pushed my CYA to 40 max and see a slight decrease in daily FC loss but I am well north of you and my pool temps only get into the low 80's.
With daily liquid I maintain my FC and I also use trichlor tabs when away from home. This season during peak (now) I have been using a tab or two as short term biweekly CYA maintenance, help lower my pH without MAcid and also realize a slight savings in liquid. It won't be long now the FC loss will decline as the days shorten and the temps decrease.

 

[poolnoobgrandma]

I think that with an SWCG it is possible to follow the TFP process and not have to do daily maintenance. (KNOCKING WOOD!) Right now I look at the water daily, test every few days, and usually don't have to do anything. From reading the forum, the folks who are successfully following TFP either have a SWCG or are testing and adding chlorine daily.
When we got the pool, hubby said it was mine to maintain. Thus the screen enclosure, SWCG, and robot. I am happy not to have to go out and buy chlorine, lug it home, store it, and dump it into the pool every day.
Interesting regional differences. In west central Florida, all the pool builders encourage the SWCG. In Texas, they are really anti. We have LOTS OF POOLS IN FLORIDA. If it did all the bad stuff the Texas builders say, we'd be hearing about it.
I'd stick with my SWCG even if it ended up costing more over the long run. The convenience is well worth it.
We try to keep our CYA at 70. That seems to be the sweet spot.

 

[HermanTX]

We try to keep our CYA at 70. That seems to be the sweet spot.

Just a clarification needed. If you use a SWG then your CYA should stay stable correct? The only thing that would affect it would be dilution - adding water, which would lower CYA. Am I correct in my logic? I am a non-SWG user but on my consideration list!

 

[Newdude]

Just a clarification needed. If you use a SWG then your CYA should stay stable correct?

CYA should stay stable regardless. The SWG only changes the method of the chlorine addition and nothing else. While technically the chlorine gas process raises the PH, It is raised much more due to the aeration that results from longer pump run times associated with the SWG. If a liquid chlorine user ran their pump all or most of the day they would see a similar PH rise.

The SWG CYA is higher than that of a LC pool due to the SWG producing small amounts of chlorine that would burn off just as fast as they were added. Dumping a gallon of liquid in creates an instant rise for the whole pool and then the sun slowly burns it off.

 

[mguzzy]

@HermanTX fire up your own thread and ask your questions about installing a SWG in your plumbing... includes pix and you will get a lot of response with suggestions on how to do it!

@Jeff.williams ... Go for it! the Salinity levels are not likely to affect your stone. You may be surprised to find out you already have a substantial amount of salt in your pool. There has been some anecdotal evidence that flag stone does not do well with SWG.. and it seems that cheap flagstone was used and would have degraded with or without an SWG in play. In the meantime I would stop using pux.. Calhypo or trichlor and chlorinate with liquid chlorine. Save the pux for when you have to go on vacation or out of town and you won't be there to add chlorine.

 

[poolnoobgrandma]

Just a clarification needed. If you use a SWG then your CYA should stay stable correct? The only thing that would affect it would be dilution - adding water, which would lower CYA. Am I correct in my logic? I am a non-SWG user but on my consideration list!

We have found that in the hot summer months, our CYA degrades over time. I've had to add CYA a couple of times since spring. When my SWCG suddenly isn't keeping up, I check the CYA, and sure enough, it's down a bit.
It has nothing to do with the SWCG - it's just hot Florida sunshine, warm pool water, and long days...

 

[Newdude]

It has nothing to do with the SWCG - it's just hot Florida sunshine, warm pool water, and long days

Exactly. Normal 2-5 drop per month is expected. And folks with extra blazing sun may see more than that, regardless of SWG or not. Then factor in the torrential rains that FL gets and you’ll need a tad more than THAT !!

 

[cowboycasey]

I bet your salt level is above 1500 now and raising every time you put in chlorine.. Depending on when you initially put water in it could be higher... You would need at least an RJ 60 or 2 IC 60 for that monster pool You may get away with one IC60 but you would have to run your pump 24/7 or really close to that...

I love my SWG and if it died today another one would be on order tonight...

 

[homegameroom]

I think I lose more CYA (and salt and Calcium) to heavy rainstorms than anything else.

I love my SWCG! I maybe check my water once a week (mainly for pH) and I don't worry about feeding it chlorine if I go out of town.

 

[HeyEng]

The SWG only changes the method of the chlorine addition and nothing else. While technically the chlorine gas process raises the PH, It is raised much more due to the aeration that results from longer pump run times associated with the SWG.

I know this is a little off topic, but I have not changed my pump run time since installing the SWCG, but I most certainly have seen a significant rise in pH. Before, I had to add about 4c of MA every 3 weeks or so. Now, I have to add the same 4c about ONCE a week. So, in my experience (and opinion) the pH rise is definitely something that is associated with the SWCG as well (perhaps the hydrogen bubbles?) and not necessarily attributed to pump run time alone.

I bet your salt level is above 1500 now and raising every time you put in chlorine.. Depending on when you initially put water in it could be higher... You would need at least an RJ 60 or 2 IC 60 for that monster pool You may get away with one IC60 but you would have to run your pump 24/7 or really close to that...

I love my SWG and if it died today another one would be on order tonight...

Although I own an RJ-60+, I don't know that I would recommend that model for someone with a larger pool. If you take a gander at this thread some of us are seeing only a 1/3 production of chlorine over what is claimed by CircuPool and if you have a larger pool, then there is a distinct possibility that it won't keep up with your demand.

 

[Newdude]

So, in my experience (and opinion) the Ph rise is definitely something that is associated with the SWCG as well (perhaps the hydrogen bubbles?) and not necessarily attributed to pump run time alone.

Yes of course, its a combo. But its usually blamed all on the SWG not factoring the average pool increases its runtime when they switch.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I rarely need to add CYA but once per year......this summer we've had so much rain that I've had to add more chemicals as we have had to drain the pool down repeatedly. Its not unlike the Florida folks have to often do.

My pH rarely rises with my SWG, perhaps because it runs at such a low percentage since its oversized. A pH of 7.8 is its happy place

I would suggest the OP raise his CYA to 50ppm.

Maddie

 

[cowboycasey]

I know this is a little off topic, but I have not changed my pump run time since installing the SWCG, but I most certainly have seen a significant rise in pH. Before, I had to add about 4c of MA every 3 weeks or so. Now, I have to add the same 4c about ONCE a week. So, in my experience (and opinion) the pH rise is definitely something that is associated with the SWCG as well (perhaps the hydrogen bubbles?) and not necessarily attributed to pump run time alone.




Although I own an RJ-60+, I don't know that I would recommend that model for someone with a larger pool. If you take a gander at this thread some of us are seeing only a 1/3 production of chlorine over what is claimed by CircuPool and if you have a larger pool, then there is a distinct possibility that it won't keep up with your demand.

If you lower your TA to 50 your PH and pool should be way more happy

 

[Dirk]

I can only speak about my pool and my use case scenario. I was determined to figure out just how little I could do. Turns out, it's very little. There was upfront expense, but worth every dime:
- IntelliChlor SWG
- IntellipH acid injection system
- Auto-filler and overflow system (that came with the pool)
- Replumbing my auto-filler to my water softener (my fill water has high CH)

This is not necessarily best practice, but this is now my reality:
- I never think about my water level, rain or shine
- I only buy, lug and dose chlorine and acid in a couple of the winter months, when it's too cold for SWG and the pool doesn't use much anyway
- The rest of the year, I don't do much at all. IC and IpH do all the work. I have to add acid to the IpH every month or so, probably less.
- I only test once a week. I sometimes make slight adjustments to the IC and IpH to account for the seasonal weather changes after testing.
- I add CYA maybe once a year.
- My rainfall pretty much negates salt accumulation.
- I don't do anything for TA.
- I don't do anything for CH (it hasn't accumulated since I started topping off with soft water).

That's it. Maybe 10 minutes a week for testing and basket cleaning. 10 minutes every month or two for adding acid. A couple hours, once a year, to clean my cartridge filter.

Ironically, it's the coldest months that are the most work, but that's still just once a week, maybe about 15 minutes (have to manually add CL and MA).

It really is Trouble Free. And as close to maintenance free as a concrete pool can get. YMMV, but the automation expense has paid for itself for my use case.

Regarding the flagstone. I have. Came with the pool. It was not in great shape (flaking and sandy). Maybe it's the lower quality type folks mention. But it was in bad shape when I bought the house. Before there was ever an SWG. Flagstone is just layers of compressed sand. IMO, if it's going to come apart, it's the water that's going to do that, not the salt. I had a stone expert evaluate the problem. Sealers don't solve for the delamination. He applied a very special (read "very expense") solution to the stone and that pretty much stopped the flaking and sanding. I still get small chips come off once in a while, and I have one stone that is a bit sandy. I love my flagstone, but IMO it doesn't belong at a water's edge. If it fails, I'll probably use something else. Or just replace the one or two problem-chiles.

In other words: +1 for SWG. If your pool eats acid, then automate that, too.