Coming Up With a Natural-based Care Regime

[Baskin]

Hi Everyone,
Doing some thinking about creating an effective care routine with minimal exposure to chemicals like chlorine, bromine, etc.
My thoughts so far:
1) ozone is a must
2) do a regular chlorine shock (weekly?), and then follow with sodium ascorbate (vitamin c that is pH neutral) which neutralizes chlorine.
3) between shocks, use h2o2 after each tub use to discourage bacterial growth.
_____________________

Concerns:
1) as I understand it, chloramines cannot be eliminated without doing a breakpoint chlorination.
---Without eliminating chloramines, vitamin C will break them into chlorine & ammonia. If the chlorine is eliminated by the vitamin C, that leaves ammonia, which could be a problem.
2) regular small doses of h2o2: as I understand it h2o2 is a highly alkaline substance, so this may require an additional component to stay within a proper pH range. I have not tested any of this yet, but would be open to thoughts about natural pH raising/lower agents.

In conclusion, I am a new spa owner and inexperienced with all of this. My goal is to not use the spa with residual chlorine/bromine or other chemicals.
I would love to know anyone's thoughtful feedback regarding this particular routine I have proposed. Thank you.

 

[kimkats]

I have our chemistry guy on his way to tackle this and help you understand the whys and why nots. For right now I will leave this link:

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?)

This is the TFP method for keeping a spa. It is safe, clean, and easy.

Kim TFP MOD

 

[ant 83]

Pool stores love to hear about folks wanting to stay away from chlorine. It allows them to drain your wallet with the never-ending list of snake oil garbage that doesn't work.

You'll end up with skin and lung infections from the bacteria growth. 100 degrees is the Goldilocks zone for explosive and exponential bacteria multiplication.

It's hard enough to keep a hot tub sanitary even with chlorine due to bio-films in the plumbing and on the spa shell protecting the bacteria.

People die of legionnaires disease. Google it.

Good luck with that. Hot tub folliculitis - Wikipedia

 

[domct203]

Hi Everyone,
Doing some thinking about creating an effective care routine with minimal exposure to chemicals like chlorine, bromine, etc.
My thoughts so far:
1) ozone is a must
2) do a regular chlorine shock (weekly?), and then follow with sodium ascorbate (vitamin c that is pH neutral) which neutralizes chlorine.
3) between shocks, use h2o2 after each tub use to discourage bacterial growth.
_____________________

Concerns:
1) as I understand it, chloramines cannot be eliminated without doing a breakpoint chlorination.
---Without eliminating chloramines, vitamin C will break them into chlorine & ammonia. If the chlorine is eliminated by the vitamin C, that leaves ammonia, which could be a problem.
2) regular small doses of h2o2: as I understand it h2o2 is a highly alkaline substance, so this may require an additional component to stay within a proper pH range. I have not tested any of this yet, but would be open to thoughts about natural pH raising/lower agents.

In conclusion, I am a new spa owner and inexperienced with all of this. My goal is to not use the spa with residual chlorine/bromine or other chemicals.
I would love to know anyone's thoughtful feedback regarding this particular routine I have proposed. Thank you.

Hello and Welcome to the forum!

What is your motivation for this? Is it simply a theory you are exercising, or do you have a 'fear' of chlorine?

Chlorine really is the safest, reliable & most economical form of water sanitization. Millions of lives have been saved due to safe drinking water made possible by chlorine.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

There are only three EPA approved methods for sanitizing recreational bodies of water - halogen sanitizers (chlorine or bromine), biguanide & peroxide (trade name Baquacil), or silver ions with MPS (potassium monopersulfate) as an oxidizer (Zodiac sells it under the trade name Nature2 System). That's it. If you do not use one of those methods, you expose yourself to possibly serious and life-threatening infections that will be far more dangerous to you than "chemicals" ever will. I'm not sure where you are getting the science you listed in your post, but it lacks a lot of basic info.

1. Ozone is NOT "a must". Ozone is typically found on tubs that use bromine as their primary disinfectant because bromide (the inactive salt of bromine) can be oxidized back to active, sanitizing bromine by reaction with ozone. By itself, ozone is not a primary sanitizer as no residual ozone can be established in the body of water for sanitizing purposes. Ozone is, at best, a secondary oxidizer that can help to oxidize bather waste and reduce halogen sanitizer use (however, in a clean body of water, ozone will react with chlorine and the two will mutually inactivate one another causing a higher chlorine demand, not lower).

2. If a proper chlorine residual is maintained (or a proper bromine residual), then routine shocking of the water with high levels of chlorine is not always necessary.

3. Sodium ascorbate is the neutralized sodium salt of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). It has absolutely no sanitizing properties whatsoever but is does reduce chlorine to it's chloride salt rendering chlorine ineffective. It should never be used in a sanitized body of water as it will drop the residual sanitizer levels to zero allowing pathogens to flourish.

4. Peroxide is not a sanitizer at any normal or comfortable levels. If one were to use peroxide as a sanitizer, it would have to be at such high concentrations that it would cause skin and mucous membrane damage & discomfort. Peroxide acts mainly as an oxidizer and is used in the biguanide sanitizing system as the primary oxidizer for bather waste.

5. Chloramines are a range of combined chlorine-ammonia compounds some of which are easily destroyed and removed by chlorine oxidation whilst others can not be further oxidized. Inorganic chloramines (monochloramine, dichloramine and nitrogen trichloride) are all easily removed from recreational water through oxidation by chlorine. Organic chloramines (chlorine combined with urea, creatanine, etc) are persistent CCs that are not easily removed from water but can be broken down with use of MPS or through UV oxidation. In a typical hot tub used by a single person or small family, CCs can build up over time but they are usually eliminated through the exchange of water when the hot tub is dumped periodically (hot tub water should be changed about every 3 months or so).

6. Vitamin C has little to no effect on CCs and will not break them up into chlorine and ammonia. That is simply wrong.

7. Peroxide is not alkaline (a base) or acidic, it is neither. It's an oxidizer. Many peroxide solutions are stabilized with citric acid to low pH (typically around a pH of 2) in order to keep the peroxide from breaking down into oxygen gas and water. The acidic stabilizer will have no effect on a large body of water's pH. Again, peroxide CAN NOT be used as a primary sanitizer.

I would sincerely suggest you reconsider your aversion to "chemicals". The sanitizing systems mentioned above are the only "chemicals" that will keep you and anyone using your tub safe from pathogens and disease. Misuse of a hot tub can lead to infections by debilitating and lethal pathogens (Legionnaire's disease is but one example) and it behooves you to use correct scientific information to care for yourself and those around you. The notion that halogens are somehow "bad chemicals" is simply not grounded in reality and a simple search of the CDC's toxicology database will return plenty of information on the efficacy of chlorine as a disinfectant.

I suggest you follow one of the two stickies on this forum for caring for your hot tub -

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?)

OR

How do I use Bromine in my spa (or pool)?)

 

[Arobbert]

You have to have have adequate sanitizer levels in the tub at all times or bacteria will grow. This requires daily testing especially if your trying to maintain low levels. You also need to oxidize bather waste effectively after every use or it will build up and cause bacterial problems. To do this correctly you must be able to test so you know how much oxidizer is needed after each use. Otherwise you are just guessing. The amount needed varies by situation.

Hydrogen peroxide will linger after your daily use and will greatly degrade chlorine making those weekly shocks ineffective. One user on another forum has reported short term success (so far) using 100 ppm h202 and MPS shocking. Lower levels were not successful. Is soaking in h202 at that level desirable?

Unfortunately using the same bathing water week after week puts a very high strain on the water. Without proper sanitation it will be problematic and dangerous. If you search this and other forums you will find many others who have tried and mostly failed to come up with a "chemical free" process (myself included). All attempts used some form of chemical like MPS, h202 and shocking with more chlorine weekly than most people on this forum use in a week.

 

[Baskin]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I'm looking into 100ppm h2o2 safety, and will be comparing it to chlorine. The h2o2/chlorine interaction is also troubling to my proposed plan. Perhaps a neutralizing vinegar dose prior to shocking would work. Thank you for mentioning that.

Hydrogen peroxide will linger after your daily use and will greatly degrade chlorine making those weekly shocks ineffective. One user on another forum has reported short term success (so far) using 100 ppm h202 and MPS shocking. Lower levels were not successful. Is soaking in h202 at that level desirable?

 

[Baskin]

1. Ozone is NOT "a must".

In an alternative hypothetical plan, it seems using powerful oxidizers between regular shocks would give the best chance : ozone, h2o2, possibly UV?

5. Inorganic chloramines are all easily removed from recreational water through oxidation by chlorine. Organic chloramines are persistent CCs that are not easily removed from water but can be broken down with use of MPS or through UV oxidation.

6. Vitamin C has little to no effect on CCs and will not break them up into chlorine and ammonia. That is simply wrong.

Thanks. I've read numerous times vitamin c is effective at removing chloramine, as used in shower filters, but that it separates out ammonia. I've tried researching more, and found examples of aquarium owners stating the same. Do you have a resource I can reference by chance?

I also found this:
"Ascorbic acid allows neutralization of chloramines [12–14]. The half time of reaction between ascorbic acid and chloramine is about 4 min."

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/11/2579

7. peroxide CAN NOT be used as a primary sanitizer.

In my hypothetical, regular chlorine shocks would be the primary sanitizer, supplemented by regular oxidizer treatment.

 

[Donldson]

Serious question: Could you please explain how soaking in water with 100 ppm hydrogen peroxide is more natural than soaking in water with 3 ppm of free chlorine? I am having difficulty understanding the definition of "natural" as used in this discussion. What differentiates natural from unnatural in this situation?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

In an alternative hypothetical plan, it seems using powerful oxidizers between regular shocks would give the best chance : ozone, h2o2, possibly UV?

Yes, using oxidizers between shocks can help to reduce bather waste load, but not aid in sanitation. UV is probably the better choice as it as it has a lower interaction (though not zero) with free chlorine levels but it is still capable of oxidizing organics. All oxidizers will react with free chlorine in some way and degrade it.

Thanks. I've read numerous times vitamin c is effective at removing chloramine, as used in shower filters, but that it separates out ammonia. I've tried researching more, and found examples of aquarium owners stating the same. Do you have a resource I can reference by chance?

My apologies as I rushed my response. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is a reducing agent for many oxidizing chlorinated compounds. If you look specifically at monochloramine, you find -

C5H5O5CH2OH + NH2Cl ----> NH4+ + Cl- + C5H3O5CH2OH

ascorbic acid + monochloramine -----> ammonium ion + chloride ion + dehydroascorbic acid

I don't have the equilibrium constant at hand at the moment so I can't say how extensive the reaction would be at normal water pH (7-2.7.8) or how much ascorbic acid would be required to produce a given amount of ammonium ion but it should be relatively fast reaction. At normal pH, there is little ammonia (NH3) around as the equilibrium of the hydrolysis reaction of ammonia shifts in favor of ammonium ion (NH4+). Ammonium can be further oxidized to nitrates and nitrogen gas, but those reactions are much slower. Using sodium ascorbate should have the same reaction as above but will affect the pH of the water to a lesser extent. However, sodium ascorbate is more expensive than ascorbic acid. The above reaction only pertain to monochloramine, other inorganic and organic chloramines will have different reactions with ascorbic acid or, perhaps, none at all.

The main problem with your plan is that you are basically maintaining zero residual sanitizer between soaks or the sanitizer levels you propose using will be ineffective. As stated, peroxide is not an effective sanitizer except at very high levels and so the water will mostly be unprotected from bacterial growth. In hot tubs, biofilms form on the plumbing lines very easily and act as a reservoir for bacteria. Biofilms can not be removed through exposure to oxidizers or sanitizers at normal recommended levels. Superchlorination does not remove biofilms. The only way of cleaning biofilms from plumbing is to use a chemical like Ahh-some to purge the tub. In a normal hot tub using approved sanitizer methods, most folks will purge their plumbing once per year. In your scenario, biofilms can grow more easily and you'd likely be purging the plumbing with every water change. That's fairly expensive to do in terms of additional chemical usage and extra water needed to clean out the purge water in the tub.

 

[Baskin]

I feel ok about trying this plan with the use of both UV and ozone in-between chlorine shocks. Unable to find information about safe H2O2 levels for skin exposure, I would probably do low doses post tub use to help minimize bacteria. It seems accumulated ammonia may yet be an issue, so I will need to test for that, and look into safe neutralizing techniques.

Yes, using oxidizers between shocks can help to reduce bather waste load, but not aid in sanitation. UV is probably the better choice as it as it has a lower interaction (though not zero) with free chlorine levels but it is still capable of oxidizing organics. All oxidizers will react with free chlorine in some way and degrade it.



My apologies as I rushed my response. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is a reducing agent for many oxidizing chlorinated compounds. If you look specifically at monochloramine, you find -

C5H5O5CH2OH + NH2Cl ----> NH4+ + Cl- + C5H3O5CH2OH

ascorbic acid + monochloramine -----> ammonium ion + chloride ion + dehydroascorbic acid

I don't have the equilibrium constant at hand at the moment so I can't say how extensive the reaction would be at normal water pH (7-2.7.8) or how much ascorbic acid would be required to produce a given amount of ammonium ion but it should be relatively fast reaction. At normal pH, there is little ammonia (NH3) around as the equilibrium of the hydrolysis reaction of ammonia shifts in favor of ammonium ion (NH4+). Ammonium can be further oxidized to nitrates and nitrogen gas, but those reactions are much slower. Using sodium ascorbate should have the same reaction as above but will affect the pH of the water to a lesser extent. However, sodium ascorbate is more expensive than ascorbic acid. The above reaction only pertain to monochloramine, other inorganic and organic chloramines will have different reactions with ascorbic acid or, perhaps, none at all.

The main problem with your plan is that you are basically maintaining zero residual sanitizer between soaks or the sanitizer levels you propose using will be ineffective. As stated, peroxide is not an effective sanitizer except at very high levels and so the water will mostly be unprotected from bacterial growth. In hot tubs, biofilms form on the plumbing lines very easily and act as a reservoir for bacteria. Biofilms can not be removed through exposure to oxidizers or sanitizers at normal recommended levels. Superchlorination does not remove biofilms. The only way of cleaning biofilms from plumbing is to use a chemical like Ahh-some to purge the tub. In a normal hot tub using approved sanitizer methods, most folks will purge their plumbing once per year. In your scenario, biofilms can grow more easily and you'd likely be purging the plumbing with every water change. That's fairly expensive to do in terms of additional chemical usage and extra water needed to clean out the purge water in the tub.

 

[domct203]

I feel ok about trying this plan with the use of both UV and ozone in-between chlorine shocks. Unable to find information about safe H2O2 levels for skin exposure, I would probably do low doses post tub use to help minimize bacteria. It seems accumulated ammonia may yet be an issue, so I will need to test for that, and look into safe neutralizing techniques.

How do you plan to maintain a residual sanitizer level?

As already stated multiple times in this thread, you need high levels of H2O2 to act as a sanitizer. Any ‘low doses’ below the actual level needed is simply wasting H2O2 and not doing anything for sanitation.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

In the following reference, you can find a chart of sterilization parameters for peroxide (the page image I show is on Google Books) -

Block, S.S. Disinfection, Sterilization, and Preservation. Fifth edition, Philadelphia, PA: Lea & Febiger, 1991.



You’ll notice two things right away - peroxide requires very high concentrations (~500 ppm or more) to inactivate pathogens AND it requires long contact times (anywhere for 60min to 4 hours). In other words, in order to be effective against something like S. aureus, you would need to maintain 1000ppm H2O2 for 60mins.

 

[jseyfert3]

Hi Everyone,
Doing some thinking about creating an effective care routine with minimal exposure to chemicals like chlorine, bromine, etc.
My thoughts so far:
1) ozone is a must
2) do a regular chlorine shock (weekly?), and then follow with sodium ascorbate (vitamin c that is pH neutral) which neutralizes chlorine.
3) between shocks, use h2o2 after each tub use to discourage bacterial growth.
_____________________

Concerns:
1) as I understand it, chloramines cannot be eliminated without doing a breakpoint chlorination.
---Without eliminating chloramines, vitamin C will break them into chlorine & ammonia. If the chlorine is eliminated by the vitamin C, that leaves ammonia, which could be a problem.
2) regular small doses of h2o2: as I understand it h2o2 is a highly alkaline substance, so this may require an additional component to stay within a proper pH range. I have not tested any of this yet, but would be open to thoughts about natural pH raising/lower agents.

In conclusion, I am a new spa owner and inexperienced with all of this. My goal is to not use the spa with residual chlorine/bromine or other chemicals.
I would love to know anyone's thoughtful feedback regarding this particular routine I have proposed. Thank you.

Why is it you want to avoid residual chlorine/bromine anyway? The most common reason people list is they want something "natural." There isn't anything natural about a hot tub. You're keeping a small quantity of water at a temperature that causes bacteria to multiply like crazy, and then soaking in it, which adds lots of waste products even if you shower before you enter the tub. Without something (chlorine or bromine) in the water at all times bacteria will start to grow and multiply.

Ozone is a chemical. H₂O₂ is a chemical. Neither is found in large quantities in nature (except the ozone layer, if you consider 10 ppm to be large). Neither is inherently safe. I encourage you to really think about the reasons you want to avoid chlorine/bromine and consider if they are solid, logical reasons.

 

[Arobbert]

There is information out there that suggests exposure to chlorine is bad for you. That it is absorbed through the skin and is toxic. I'm not stating this as fact or advocating for the idea but it is widely believed by many people and that's why they look for an alternative.

For people that are concerned about this the best solution is to not to use a spa since there really is no way to avoid using "chemicals" despite what some companies will tell you. All you can do is try to minimize the amount you use. The only way to do this is to test often and add small amounts on a regular basis to maintain adequate sanitizer levels at all times.

I use a Stenner pump that adds small doses of chlorine all day and then add the proper amount of chlorine to oxidize bather waste per number of users after each use. Since I started using this process I can keep low chlorine levels and never have to shock. I also never get cloudy water.

 

[domct203]

There is information out there that suggests exposure to chlorine is bad for you. That it is absorbed through the skin and is toxic. I'm not stating this as fact or advocating for the idea but it is widely believed by many people and that's why they look for an alternative.

There is also information that Elvis is alive, and that there are Extra-Terrestrials walking among us ......

The proper use of chlorine as a sanitizer has extended sanitary conditions to endless corners of the globe, and probably has contributed to longer life expectancy overall.

With the very small exception of actual medical diagnosis to a chlorine allergy, most of this chlorine 'fear' is based on marketing 'scare' tactics. Bleach baths are actually prescribed by M.D.'s to treat some skin conditions like eczema & psoriasis.

 

[kimkats]

To follow up on what Dom just said we have had several members of TFP with severe skin conditions say their skin problems got quite a bit better to almost gone using the guidelines set out by TFP for a pool.

Kim TFP MOD