Cloudy Pool

Just had to add one more post..
PLEASE just use liquid chlorine or bleach at this point. Don't be adding anything else to your pool, no matter what any pool store tells you, or how impatient you get. No more stain treatments, floc, powdered shock or anything other than some muratic acid to keep the PH in check. Doing this will help get your chemistry balance issues solved. I know your looking for a clear pool instantly, but it will come. Your pool has to start holding chlorine before your pool will clear. Plain & simple. No other miracles at this point. If I'm right on my StainFree assumption, the chlorine demand issue from adding that has to get resolved now along with the organics issue of which you need to shock also. This is partly why we don't want anything else added during the Shock process. It just adds more irons to the fire, so to speak. I hope this helps to understand a bit.

OK, we all want to help you get your pool corrected, so..I did some calculations with your test results for an 8,000 gal pool in the pool calculator.
One question, are you using the pool calculator, & if so, do you understand how it works, or have any questions about using it? Don't be shy, It took a bit for me to learn it myself.
1) if you haven't done so yet, add 1 quart of muratic acid, or 41 oz dry volume of dry acid, whichever you have on hand. This will lower your PH to around 7.2-7.4. This is so we know your ph will be ok during the shock process. (PH tests are inaccurate with a FC level over 10)
2) If your FC is now measuring 0 to .5, add either 199 oz of 6% bleach (1 gal + 2qts + 1 cup) or 96 oz (3 qts) of 12.5% liquid chlorine, whichever you have on hand. This will get you to a calculated value of 12 FC. Wait one hour & test. Report back with the results. Do this precisely. Don't guess & just drop a jug (what size jug?) in. Don't be surprised if CC's rise. That's ok. We need to know what is happening.
3) report back with results.
Dave
 
Wow. This stings a bit but is exactly what I am looking which is feedback, so Thank you!

First a few things to clarify:
1) The pool calculator gives choices to use dichlor, trichlor, liquid bleach and many more and I was getting low on liquid bleach and it was not working so that is why I tried the ProTeam Shock
2) I was not using shock and swim. Well actually I was when I was listening to the pool store but since being on the forum I used ProTeam Power Magic Superoxidizer Shock. But message received and I will only use liquid bleach or chlorine
3) I am using the kit that was suggested which is the TF100
4) I used Natural Chemistry Stain Free so I think that it is citric acid. ultra800_96 mentioned that "will have a good chlorine demand till the acid is used up" This is the first time I have heard this and this is a very interesting fact and very helpful knowing.
5) I was waiting an hour or more between adding chlorine and taking the test results. I thought it would be better to wait so that I was not just measuring what I just added. I will now take the measurements 30 minutes after the chlorine is added.
6) I am using the amount of chlorine based off the 30 CYA for a total of 12 FC Shock and inputing that number into the pool calculator as my goal
7) I have read and reread all the information and am following it. Why do you not think that I am not following it. It says to shock and keep shocking until you meet the 3 criteria. And it says to do it not more than once an hour but not less than twice a day.

I followed someones advice and just did the strip test this morning and it measured 0 FC. I added the same amount of liquid chlorine as last time (as indicated on the pool calculator based on a 12 FC which is from the CYA chart) I will be taking measurement 30 minutes from that time with the TF100 test kit. Going to test now....

Update the test showed 3.0 FC and 4.0 CC
So do I now go and put 3 to 12 on the pool calculator and add chlorine accordingly? Or do I wait 30 minutes since it says "not more than once an hour"

Thanks
Mitch
 
Mitch,
On my part, I didn't mean to mis-assume that you weren't following advice, nor do I mean any of my posts to sound scolding. I just want to help clear your pool and get your balance in check. Just some questions to make sure, thats all. I don't have the post handy, but do a search on here for stain removal. There is a very good thread about using Ascorbic/citric acid & it talks about the chlorine demand. I didn't quite understand it till I did it myself. Even with the Salt/Chlorine generator at 40% + adding liquid chlorine, I'm now just able to hold measurable FC. During this last week, 4 hours & my FC level would be ZERO. I pulled my cover off this spring still measuring 3 FC with 0 CC's so I didn't have any organics to fight. Just the demand from the Citric Acid. It's real!

PS. Also, If you are going to be fighting a chlorine demand from the Citric acid like me, I just used the simple chlorine test to let me know if I had chlorine or not. Then I would still dose appropriately, trying to reach the proper dosage. That really saves on the R0870 powder. Then, when you are able to start holding FC at at higher level, (dark yellow) you can go back to the more precise kit. It may take alot of chlorine, so stock up. Just my experience. Stay the Course & be patient. It WILL get there if followed.
 
foosboy,

I want to add to what "ultra" has already said. Stop using all that other stuff and stay out of the pool store. Chlorine will clear your pool. It's all you need.

Stay focused on the advice you get here or stay focused on the pool store advice. Blending the two of them has never worked and it won't work now.
 
Dave,

Can you give input on why Mitch is having so much trouble raising FC? If he's adding the correct amount to raise 0 to 12 ppm, can the pool really be consuming so much that it's down to 3, or .5 (the two numbers he's been reporting), after just half an hour?

Or do we have some doubt now about the strength of the chlorine, or perhaps the numbers being reported?
 
(Sorry to respond if your asking the other Dave)
Gordon, depending on how much StainFree he added, I firmly believe some of the chlorine demand is from the Citric Acid of which it's made up of. I ordered 5 lbs bulk citric acid on ebay to make sure I had enough on hand, got overzealous because I didn't wait long enough for it to work & eventuallly added all of it. I had a lot of iron stains on my 17 year old vinyl liner, & they didn't lift in the expected 24 hours so I added more, and more. So I attribute part of my huge demand on my overzealousness (if that's a word?). The result though is my stains are all gone now, & I am able to hold chlorine, so live & learn in my case. At first, I couldn't hold chlorine for even an hour, trying to get to 5-6 FC. So, with knowing the effects, along if he has organic issues (cc 4), I can see the demand.

Mitch, looking at your test numbers in Calculator, if I'm plugged everything in correctly, with your PH at 7.8, your TA & CH numbers, the CSI value is .73 (scaling likely). If you didn't yet, add acid to get it down into a more balanced number. Acid as in Muratic or dry, not Citric, lol.

Dave B.
 
I was asking the other Dave, actually, but that's a perfectly sound answer as well, so thanks! :)

Those numbers sounded WAY out of whack for simple organic demand...but your explanation suggests that, indeed, if there's enough StainFree in there, he could indeed be using Chlorine that quickly.
 
ultra800_96 said:
Or, even another huge chlorine demand source would be an ammonia conversion, from sitting over winter. Doesn't matter, the fix is still the same, more liquid chlorine till he can hold it, nothing else
Exactly. No matter what the original cause or combination of causes, chlorine is the fix.
 

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All right then, chlorine it is! I feel much better just knowing that about the stain free and it totally makes sense now. I have opened the pool twice before without stain free first and never went through this much chlorine.

After that 3 FC reading I added more chlorine but waited an hour this time before I measured and saw a drop back down to .5 FC and 2.5 CC

Thanks
Mitch
 
Great! You're getting back in control. Just keep the faith & keep after it. It will all make sense totally when you see it start to shift in the right direction. Remember, just chlorine for now. Did you lower your PH also? That needs to be done if you haven't. Your CSI according to the Pool Calculator is high, suggesting scaling is possible, along with redepositing of the iron stains you were trying to get rid of.

Also again, I would hate to see you use up all your powder right away doing this, so I would use the simpler test kit to give you an indicator, then switch back when you know you can hold FC greater than 5 for an hour. Don't worry about measuring CC's right now while your getting FC to hold. You know you have them, & will be more important towards the end of the process.

Dave B. :cheers:
 
Okay, I had the wife on duty today. She is testing with the K-1000. We have our first hold of 5FC after 45 minutes. I told her to wait another hour and test again.

She does not feel comfortable at this point to perform the rest of the test kit and I do not get home till 9 or 10 tonight so I told her to monitor and ensure that it is in the 5FC range.

PH is also still up around 7.8 despite me seeing some readings around 7.5 to 7.5 yesterday and this morning. I think tha I need to add 7.7oz of muriatic acid to lower the PH.

I will post full analysis later and hopefully someone will still be awake or up early to give me feedback so that I can put chemicals in before I leave for work.

Thank you,
Mitch
 
foosboy2 said:
She does not feel comfortable at this point to perform the rest of the test kit and I do not get home till 9 or 10 tonight so I told her to monitor and ensure that it is in the 5FC range.
Mitch, what is your current cya level? Is it 30 ppm? If it is (or if you have added enough cya to get to that level after it is totally disolved into the pool) then your minimum FC level should be 12 ppm. The longer you are above that level the quicker your shock process will go. Since the OTO test can not test above 5 ppm FC, I would encourage your wife to learn the FAS-DPD test with you since she will be around the pool during the day and can keep the level above 12 ppm. If after testing 1/2 hour after adding the level is not above 12 ppm, then use poolcalculator and add some more. Keep doing this until you stay above 12 ppm.
 
Mitch, That's GREAT to hear that it's finally starting to hold. Yep, just keep shooting for that 12 FC figure. You'll be able to see soon how it holds longer & longer, & pretty soon you'll be there. If she still finds it drops more or to zero after a longer period, she can still add chlorine to get to the target, & not have to use the powder, but as linen stated, you'll need to use the powder probably soon to keep at the 12 mark. You'll get a feel pretty quick on how long it takes to drop & by how much.
Dave

Also, as I stated above you do need to drop your PH, the sooner the better.
 
Wow. She's awesome. She measured. She got 7ppm FC and 2.5ppm CC. CYA was 20 and that is up from 0 on friday and 5 on saturday morning. I only told her to measure those. Should I have her go full bore and measure all or is this okay for now until I get home.

I had her add 44 oz of 12% chorine to bring from 7 FC to 12 FC.

What next? This is so exciting! Just wish I could have seen the FC hold. I'm the one that screwed with it from Friday evening until late Sunday night. :)

Mitch
 
Sounding good! I think the chlorine likes your better half better then you :mrgreen:

You may want to shoot a little higher than 12 ppm, since the organisms in your pool seem to be eating the chlorine at a high rate. Maybe shoot for 17 ppm and see where you are 1/2 hour later. The best is to stay at or above 12 ppm as much as possible.
 
Linen's got a good point. Shooting a little higher wouldn't hurt. It looks like your getting over the Citric Stainfree hump & probably working on organics also. The CC's tell me it's probably organics, as I had none fighting the citric acid. Don't know & it really doesn't matter now. Just so glad it's starting to hold for you. I'm hoping the rest of the battle will go quickly now.

Kudos to your wife also for testing!

I'd just have her concentrate on the Chlorine testing for now, other than...Did you lower your PH yet? According to your full test results, you are at risk for scaling & redepositing the iron stains. Plus, when you get the point of 10+ FC, the PH test will be inaccurate and a lower PH will enhance the working of the Chlorine a bit.
 
Okay wife checked at 8:30 and measured 6.5 FC and added another half gallon of liquid chlorine.

I got home about 10:30 and measured the following:

11.5 FC
2.5 CC
210 TA
390 CH
25 CYA
7.5 PH

Going to check the pool calculator now but looking for comments before adding.
Update Pool Calculator only told me to add a little chlorine. It also said stabilizer but I think we want to hold on that. Comments?
Mitch
Michigan
8000 gal, IG, Fiberglass, Jandy CS 200 Cartridge Filter, new filter August 2011
Free chlorine 11.5 ppm
Total chlorine 14.0 ppm
Combined chlorine 2.5 ppm
pH 7.5
Hardness 390 ppm
Alkalinity 210 ppm
Cyanuric acid 25 ppm
Measured 5/21/12 @ 10:45 PM
 

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