CH/TA ratio

[KennethKelso]

Has anyone tried controlling a 4:1 CH/TA ratio?
The attached article describes how a 4:1 CH/TA aids in “containing” ph (effectively reducing ph fluctuations).

Ideal Calcium Hardness and Total Alkalinity Levels in Pools

Balance water easier with a favorable ratio of ideal calcium hardness to total alkalinity (CH: TA). Experience shows us a minimum of 3:1 improves pool chemistry

blog.orendatech.com

I am currently reducing my CYA (target is below 50) and should be there after my next partial drain and re-fill. I will then have a prime opportunity to adjust to a 4:1 CH/TA.
Any comments will be appreciated

And, I apologize in advance if this has been discussed in this forum previously.

 

[Bperry]

Has anyone tried controlling a 4:1 CH/TA ratio?
The attached article describes how a 4:1 CH/TA aids in “containing” ph (effectively reducing ph fluctuations).

Ideal Calcium Hardness and Total Alkalinity Levels in Pools

Balance water easier with a favorable ratio of ideal calcium hardness to total alkalinity (CH: TA). Experience shows us a minimum of 3:1 improves pool chemistry

blog.orendatech.com

I am currently reducing my CYA (target is below 50) and should be there after my next partial drain and re-fill. I will then have a prime opportunity to adjust to a 4:1 CH/TA.
Any comments will be appreciated

And, I apologize in advance if this has been discussed in this forum previously.

Did you read the whole article? They admit in the article that the ratio is just a coincidence of other factors.

 

[KennethKelso]

Thanks for the reply Bperry.
Yes I did.
The entire article was interspersed with admissions that there is no science behind the resulting ph stability.
My question was and still is; Has anyone tried controlling a 4:1 CH/TA ratio?

 

[duraleigh]

First I have heard of it. The two are completely unrelated so I don't see the point, Buffer the pH change by keeping ta down around 60-70

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

This a footnote from the article from a credible source:

3 Quoted from an email conversation with Richard Falk. And just for fun, here's more of what Falk said: "As I noted above, the ratio concept is COMPLETELY bogus since one can readily achieve 4:1 with 200 ppm TA and 800 ppm CH and yet that's obviously nuts since it has too high a calcite saturation index AND has high carbon dioxide outgassing with pH rising quickly due to the high TA. Again, the ratio idea is completely insane." Richard knows how to cut through the Crud and tell it like it is. And we love it.

 

[KennethKelso]

Thanks for the reply duraleigh.
I will bring the TA down to 60-70 after re-filling.

 

[KennethKelso]

This a footnote from the article from a credible source:

3 Quoted from an email conversation with Richard Falk. And just for fun, here's more of what Falk said: "As I noted above, the ratio concept is COMPLETELY bogus since one can readily achieve 4:1 with 200 ppm TA and 800 ppm CH and yet that's obviously nuts since it has too high a calcite saturation index AND has high carbon dioxide outgassing with pH rising quickly due to the high TA. Again, the ratio idea is completely insane." Richard knows how to cut through the Crud and tell it like it is. And we love it.

Thanks for the reply Rancho Cost-a-Lotta
Yes,
The entire article was interspersed with admissions that there is no science behind the resulting ph stability. The article simply shared their experience with a more stable ph while maintaining the 4:1 CH/TA.

 

[Bperry]

First I have heard of it. The two are completely unrelated so I don't see the point, Buffer the pH change by keeping ta down around 60-70

This is precisely what the article ended up prescribing. It’s so weird to go through the trouble of writing an article describing this ratio as something useful all the while knowing that’s it’s nonsense, and even admitting it’s nonsense at the end.

From Richard Falk:

"...the better way to look at it is not as a ratio, but to lower the carbonate alkalinity. And when one does that, raise the calcium hardness to compensate." - Richard Falk3

“What seemed like a chemistry phenomenon turns out to be pure coincidence. So to reiterate one final time, we're saying to use the 4:1 (or higher) ratio as a rule of thumb target to help you simplify your water chemistry, even though there's only an indirect connection between calcium hardness and total alkalinity.”

 

[Newdude]

I've said it before and I doubt this will be the last time :

Orenda Tech - making things unnecessarily difficult since 1990.

I can't even wrap my head around why they'd waste their time writing an article they went so far to debunk themselves.

I should write my own article that yesterday I got great gas milage on a 600 mile road trip because I took the light blue vehicle and not the dark blue vehicle. The paint must have something to do with it. The scientists I spoke to laughed at me, and the last 3 times I did similar had different results, but I thought it would be fun to explain how what I saw was totally coincidental in regards to the vehicle color.

 

[Mdragger88]

I read articles like this all the time that had some intriguing headline - drives me nuts.
Just pumping out click bait for ad revenue.

 

[mgtfp]

This is another gem in the article:

We first learned this concept from Tom Carrico, and it has stuck with us ever since. Tom told us that a man named Dr. McNamara used to advise the NY state health department many years ago, and he was a water chemistry expert.
...
As mentioned in our footnote, we would cite our sources here, but we cannot find anything published by Dr. McNamara, or even mentioning him by name.

 

[Newdude]

These did it for me :

To find out, we did some digging, and we talked to chemists and others who know way more than we do about water. Our first expert–Richard Falk–in no uncertain terms obliterated the validity of the CH: TA ratio. It was actually so much of a stomp down it was funny to read...

And the piece de resistance:

You might find it odd to publish a concept that has no chemistry validity whatsoever, but we think it's fantastic.

 

[JamesW]

Has anyone tried controlling a 4:1 CH/TA ratio?

That is a simplification of the rule they use.

The guy explains the full formula in this video with their test pool.

This is the full rule:

The calcium should be kept at a 4:1 ratio to the TA but only on Thursdays and the TA should be 10 times the pH except for Days with an R or a W and the CYA should be equal to the water temperature and the FC should be the square root of the date in binary.

 

[KennethKelso]

That is a simplification of the rule they use.

The guy explains the full formula in this video with their test pool.

This is the full rule:

The calcium should be kept at a 4:1 ratio to the TA but only on Thursdays and the TA should be 10 times the pH except for Days with an R or a W and the CYA should be equal to the water temperature and the FC should be the square root of the date in binary.

Thanks so very much to everyone for the comments. I’m so happy that I could provide a good laugh for all your lives.