CH 450 in New Stonescapes, Scale forming again

[KayyLo]

I have been following the TFP way for two (?) months or so and it’s made my pool gorgeous. We had a terrible startup on our black StoneScapes with the entire pool covered in calcium. Some areas were so caked on that it looked like elephant skin.
I’ve been battling it by keeping PH at 7.0-7.2 (usually 7.2) and occasionally letting it get to 7.4 or 7.6 but bringing it back down after a day or so. It’s been working and calcium comes of when I brush daily. Some areas have improved to where the black finish is back and other areas I can see black trying to peek through. The Abolone shell is starting to pop out again as well.

My concern now is I tested this morning and the CH is at 450, up from last week and the week prior. My husband has been trying to pressure wash calcium off but I think that may have caused the CH to rise. Our fill water is 150. I thought I may have been seeing things this morning but I am sure the scale in areas it was improving or gone is starting to building up again like the steps and tanning shelf. I can see a haze where there wasn’t anymore scale. I watch this pool like a hawk so I’m sensitive to changes.

Per the Stonescapes guidelines I should be at no more than 400 so I believe my high CH is contributing to the calcium haze I’m seeing on the pebble again.

Do you suggest a partial drain and refill? I have an auto refill. I’m not sure how much to drain if so. I’d prefer not to but if the CH is the issue we may have to.

I did a full work up this morning.

Temp: 77
FC: 6.5 (added 1 cup bleach)
PH: 7.4 (added 1 cup muriatic acid)
TA: 60 (added 2lbs baking soda)
CH: 450
CYA: 60
CSI: -0.31

I test FC and PH daily and do a full panel weekly.

Thanks! I wouldn’t be too concerned if that scale wasn’t taunting me. CSI is good.

 

[KayyLo]

Chems I added brought CSI down to -0.18.

Temp 77
FC: 7.5
PH: 7.3
TA: 90

 

[proavia]

TA at 60 was just fine and was helping to keep the pH from rising too fast.
Keep your CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 (negative 0.30) range to minimize scaling.

If your CSI was -0.31 and is now -0.18, you actually brought the CSI up not down.

What is the pH, TA and CH of your fill water?

 

[KayyLo]

TA at 60 was just fine and was helping to keep the pH from rising too fast.
Keep your CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 (negative 0.30) range to minimize scaling.

If your CSI was -0.31 and is now -0.18, you actually brought the CSI up not down.

What is the pH, TA and CH of your fill water?

Well darn!! I was worried TA may have been too low based off what Stonescapes guidelines were. Thanks for the insight. It makes sense now why my PH hasn’t been rising as fast as it was.

I also thought closer to 0.0 was where I’d want to be ideally but -0.3 is better but yea, correct, I went up.


Fill water:

PH: 8.0 (or higher)
CH: 150
TA: 130

 

[proavia]

Well darn!! I was worried TA may have been too low based off what Stonescapes guidelines were. Thanks for the insight. It makes sense now why my PH hasn’t been rising as fast as it was.

I also thought closer to 0.0 was where I’d want to be ideally but -0.3 is better but yea, correct, I went up.


Fill water:

PH: 8.0 (or higher)
CH: 150
TA: 130

With your new TA of 90, the pH will rise quicker than it did when the TA was 60.
Your fill water TA of 130 will cause the pool water TA to rise - if you have a high evaporation rate. Where in Cali are you?

A fill water CH of 150 isn't too bad. If you had a water softener plumbed to your autofill you could easily maintain your CH at your chosen ppm.
I'm in AZ and my fill water CH is 250 with a TA of 140. I have my water softener plumbed to my autofill. In three plus years, my pool CH increase about 50 ppm.
Now, I basically fight to keep my TA down do to high evaporation rates - but my CH is stable.

The CSI range of 0.00 to -0.30 is what we recommend for members with a SWG.
While you don't have one (yet), if you are experiencing scaling of the pool surface it may be best to keep your CSI in that range as well.

How are you chlorinating?
You should seriously consider a SWG - while you pay for the chlorine up front, the convenience and relatively quick payback is more than worth the initial cost.

 

[KayyLo]

With your new TA of 90, the pH will rise quicker than it did when the TA was 60.
Your fill water TA of 130 will cause the pool water TA to rise - if you have a high evaporation rate. Where in Cali are you?

A fill water CH of 150 isn't too bad. If you had a water softener plumbed to your autofill you could easily maintain your CH at your chosen ppm.
I'm in AZ and my fill water CH is 250 with a TA of 140. I have my water softener plumbed to my autofill. In three plus years, my pool CH increase about 50 ppm.
Now, I basically fight to keep my TA down do to high evaporation rates - but my CH is stable.

The CSI range of 0.00 to -0.30 is what we recommend for members with a SWG.
While you don't have one (yet), if you are experiencing scaling of the pool surface it may be best to keep your CSI in that range as well.

How are you chlorinating?
You should seriously consider a SWG - while you pay for the chlorine up front, the convenience and relatively quick payback is more than worth the initial cost.

I’m in inland SoCal so definitely hot. Future considerations are a water softener and SWG but not for awhile while we tackle other home repairs and maintenance issues that need attention. I use liquid chlorine.

I’m now wondering if what I was seeing is the changes in the calcium appearance because it’s starting to release more. I’ll be keeping an eye on it and continue to manage my chems within the suggested range.

Thank you.

 

[Dirk]

Gene has you covered, but I thought I'd add a few data points to consider.

While your fill water of CH150 is lower than the pool, that won't help your pool's rising CH, it is causing it. As your water evaporates, it doesn't take the CH with it, it leaves it behind. When your auto-filler kicks in, it's just adding even more CH, even though it's a lower CH than your pool's. It's just going to keep collecting.

The only way to bring down CH is to do a water exchange. And keep in mind, when you fill the water back up, you'll be adding water that already has CH150 in it! Which means you'll have to exchange all that much more to get to your target CH. I did a small exchange last year, and filled the pool back up using water from my softener. So I didn't have to exchange much, because my fill water was CH-ZERO! I had to do that exchange because, even with a softener, the CH crept back up slowly. It took over five years, so I consider that a success. But instead of waiting another five years, I'm going to do a much smaller exchange each Spring. It'll be easier, and that'll keep my CH very close to target level constantly (as opposed to letting it get too far out of range).

I also don't like to let water out of my pool. It's risky (very small risk), but with these annual mini-exchanges done with CH-ZERO water, the risk is all but eliminated.

I get that a water softener is not in the budget right now, but consider this. You'll be fighting CH until you get one. Every day you wait is just that much more water you'll need to exchange (is water expensive in your area?). Which is money you could allocate to the softener purchase.

You can purchase a softener at Lowes for about $500. I bought mine from Lowes for about $600, and it's now about $750 (Whirlpool). It's going on 10 years old and still going strong. Not only does it take care of my pool's CH issue, it's quite luxurious in the shower. My toilets are not getting all "CH'd," neither are any of my plumbing fixtures, appliances, tile surfaces, shower glass, etc, etc. My investment has more than paid for itself just in terms of pool water maintenance, but is also returning huge dividends in prolonging the lives of all my plumbing, appliances and glass and tile surfaces. The longer you wait to "afford" a softener, the more it'll cost you in the damage your water supply is doing to your pool and house.

When I bought this house, the pool, the shower, the toilets were all trashed with CH build up. I had to replace the pool finish and I spent days scrubbing CH off of glass and tile and ceramic. Now, nine years later, all my fixtures and the pool are pristine, thanks to the softener. And by the way (I hate to admit), I never brush my pool. Not a trace of CH anywhere under water to be found! How's that sound?! I can't imagine having to brush my pool everyday. Yikes.

Do you know if your house is plumbed for soft water? You'd see capped pipes stubbed out in a wall somewhere, usually in the garage. If so, the installation is pretty simple. So your only expense would be the softener itself.

I did mine, EZPZ. I then plumbed my softener to my pool's auto leveler. That was more involved, but it was all DIY. Myself and others here would help walk you through everything, so you've got that resource at your back.

The SWG, Gene pointed out, will pay for itself in short order, but of the two, it is the considerably more expensive initial outlay. I'd get the softener first.

OK, so all that said, consider your finish's warranty when deciding on your target levels for your pool. CSI is the critical factor to keep under control, exactly as Gene advises. But the trick is to get your CSI in range while also maintaining your finish's warranty. Should you have a problem with the finish, the first thing the warranty facilitator will want to know is a history of your water chemistry. If you can't prove that you've been in their recommended ranges the entire time, (CH450 is not that!), they might try to negate your warranty. Even if you can site TFP's methodology as being better for your finish, they'll still have grounds to get out of any warranty repair. Think that through as you strategize your water maintenance goals.

Anywho, I do go on, but I really can't say enough good things about my softener! It was a great investment. The sooner you buy one, the better the return.

 

[KayyLo]

Gene has you covered, but I thought I'd add a few data points to consider.

While your fill water of CH150 is lower than the pool, that won't help your pool's rising CH, it is causing it. As your water evaporates, it doesn't take the CH with it, it leaves it behind. When your auto-filler kicks in, it's just adding even more CH, even though it's a lower CH than your pool's. It's just going to keep collecting.

The only way to bring down CH is to do a water exchange. And keep in mind, when you fill the water back up, you'll be adding water that already has CH150 in it! Which means you'll have to exchange all that much more to get to your target CH. I did a small exchange last year, and filled the pool back up using water from my softener. So I didn't have to exchange much, because my fill water was CH-ZERO! I had to do that exchange because, even with a softener, the CH crept back up slowly. It took over five years, so I consider that a success. But instead of waiting another five years, I'm going to do a much smaller exchange each Spring. It'll be easier, and that'll keep my CH very close to target level constantly (as opposed to letting it get too far out of range).

I also don't like to let water out of my pool. It's risky (very small risk), but with these annual mini-exchanges done with CH-ZERO water, the risk is all but eliminated.

I get that a water softener is not in the budget right now, but consider this. You'll be fighting CH until you get one. Every day you wait is just that much more water you'll need to exchange (is water expensive in your area?). Which is money you could allocate to the softener purchase.

You can purchase a softener at Lowes for about $500. I bought mine from Lowes for about $600, and it's now about $750 (Whirlpool). It's going on 10 years old and still going strong. Not only does it take care of my pool's CH issue, it's quite luxurious in the shower. My toilets are not getting all "CH'd," neither are any of my plumbing fixtures, appliances, tile surfaces, shower glass, etc, etc. My investment has more than paid for itself just in terms of pool water maintenance, but is also returning huge dividends in prolonging the lives of all my plumbing, appliances and glass and tile surfaces. The longer you wait to "afford" a softener, the more it'll cost you in the damage your water supply is doing to your pool and house.

When I bought this house, the pool, the shower, the toilets were all trashed with CH build up. I had to replace the pool finish and I spent days scrubbing CH off of glass and tile and ceramic. Now, nine years later, all my fixtures and the pool are pristine, thanks to the softener. And by the way (I hate to admit), I never brush my pool. Not a trace of CH anywhere under water to be found! How's that sound?! I can't imagine having to brush my pool everyday. Yikes.

Do you know if your house is plumbed for soft water? You'd see capped pipes stubbed out in a wall somewhere, usually in the garage. If so, the installation is pretty simple. So your only expense would be the softener itself.

I did mine, EZPZ. I then plumbed my softener to my pool's auto leveler. That was more involved, but it was all DIY. Myself and others here would help walk you through everything, so you've got that resource at your back.

The SWG, Gene pointed out, will pay for itself in short order, but of the two, it is the considerably more expensive initial outlay. I'd get the softener first.

OK, so all that said, consider your finish's warranty when deciding on your target levels for your pool. CSI is the critical factor to keep under control, exactly as Gene advises. But the trick is to get your CSI in range while also maintaining your finish's warranty. Should you have a problem with the finish, the first thing the warranty facilitator will want to know is a history of your water chemistry. If you can't prove that you've been in their recommended ranges the entire time, (CH450 is not that!), they might try to negate your warranty. Even if you can site TFP's methodology as being better for your finish, they'll still have grounds to get out of any warranty repair. Think that through as you strategize your water maintenance goals.

Anywho, I do go on, but I really can't say enough good things about my softener! It was a great investment. The sooner you buy one, the better the return.

A softener at $700 is doable! I thought the cost would be with another 0 in there. These termites need to go first but under $1k is something we can do. My husband has been itching for one and he was quite happy it was suggested. I’ll have to see if we’re plumbed for it. Thank you for your input!

 

[KayyLo]

I posted yesterday about my CH levels being too high and seeing calcium starting to buildup. I’m watching videos and reading the forums to see how to go about doing a partial drain.

I’ve added a picture of my equipment. I use the lower valve I marked as two to control the speed of my vacuum. Is that the skimmer valve? Top valve is pump valve? I have a spigot as well and think I use that to drain.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Yesterday’s full panel yielded the following:

FC: 7.5
PH: 7.3
TA: 90
CH: 450
CYA: 60

Fill water:
PH: 8.0+
TA: 130
PH: 150

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Using your pump to drain water is not recommended. If your pump runs dry, your pump will be toast. TFP recommends using a submersible pump for draining water. I have a Superior 1/3 HP which is a pretty good value. There are other options available from HD, Lowes, Harbor Freight etc. HD rents higher flowing pumps as well. Check out this article...

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[proavia]

If your house is NOT pre-plumbed for a water softener you would need to plumb from the house water shutoff valve to the proposed location of the water softener. You would also need a drain line, used when the water softener regenerates. This is usually easily doable, but adds to the cost.

 

[KayyLo]

If your house is NOT pre-plumbed for a water softener you would need to plumb from the house water shutoff valve to the proposed location of the water softener. You would also need a drain line, used when the water softener regenerates. This is usually easily doable, but adds to the cost.

Sounds like a plumber is in need for this. We’re having one come out for other things so I’ll be talking to them about this. Sounds like a water softener is the way to go.

 

[KayyLo]

Using your pump to drain water is not recommended. If your pump runs dry, your pump will be toast. TFP recommends using a submersible pump for draining water. I have a Superior 1/3 HP which is a pretty good value. There are other options available from HD, Lowes, Harbor Freight etc. HD rents higher flowing pumps as well. Check out this article...

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Thank goodness! This will be so much easier! I appreciate your help.

 

[Dirk]

Thank goodness! This will be so much easier! I appreciate your help.

Having a little pump on hand is also a great investment. Great for draining the pool, but can also be used, in a pinch, to keep your water circulating enough to maintain FC should your main pump or plumbing get a problem that puts them out of commission for a while. If you lose circulation and have to wait some time for a repair man or replacement part, your pool can quickly turn into a green swamp. And with the cost of liquid chlorine these days, clearing up such a swamp can get very expensive (buying all the chlorine).

To the rescue comes your little sump pump, that will keep your water moving well enough to keep it free of algae while you wait for the repair.

I bought the 1/3HP plastic version of this one, along with a roll up drain hose, and together they work great.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X07GQS

Amazon.com

Or you can just use a garden hose instead of the roll up hose.

@newdude has a favorite pump to recommend, but I always forget which one it is.

Speaking of which, if you live on a hill, you can use a garden hose and just siphon the water out, I've done that before. Takes a lot longer though.

Either way, be mindful of where the water goes. Some municipalities are very particular about where you can drain pool water. And some will fine you if you do it wrong. You might research that before your exchange. Your local Public Works department might be the place to start.

Be sure to turn off all the circuit breakers to your pool during the exchange. You want to eliminate the possibility of your main pump coming on while the water is low, which as Mike points out, could cost you a pump!

 

[Dirk]

On a positive note... I took a peek at your pool pad pic. Someone did a very nice job on that. They used sweep elbows throughout, along with high-quality valves. All painted up proper. And your auto-fill has a proper backflow preventer inline. None of that might mean anything to you just now, but it's all good. Real good. And if they did a good job above ground, chances are they did a good job underground, and elsewhere, too!

 

[Newdude]

$83 pump will move almost 5k gallons per hour when paired with a 1.5 inch hose. Hard to beat.

 

[KayyLo]

On a positive note... I took a peek at your pool pad pic. Someone did a very nice job on that. They used sweep elbows throughout, along with high-quality valves. All painted up proper. And your auto-fill has a proper backflow preventer inline. None of that might mean anything to you just now, but it's all good. Real good. And if they did a good job above ground, chances are they did a good job underground, and elsewhere, too!

Thank you!

 

[KayyLo]

Having a little pump on hand is also a great investment. Great for draining the pool, but can also be used, in a pinch, to keep your water circulating enough to maintain FC should your main pump or plumbing get a problem that puts them out of commission for a while. If you lose circulation and have to wait some time for a repair man or replacement part, your pool can quickly turn into a green swamp. And with the cost of liquid chlorine these days, clearing up such a swamp can get very expensive (buying all the chlorine).

To the rescue comes your little sump pump, that will keep your water moving well enough to keep it free of algae while you wait for the repair.

I bought the 1/3HP plastic version of this one, along with a roll up drain hose, and together they work great.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X07GQS

Amazon.com

Or you can just use a garden hose instead of the roll up hose.

@newdude has a favorite pump to recommend, but I always forget which one it is.

Speaking of which, if you live on a hill, you can use a garden hose and just siphon the water out, I've done that before. Takes a lot longer though.

Either way, be mindful of where the water goes. Some municipalities are very particular about where you can drain pool water. And some will fine you if you do it wrong. You might research that before your exchange. Your local Public Works department might be the place to start.

Be sure to turn off all the circuit breakers to your pool during the exchange. You want to eliminate the possibility of your main pump coming on while the water is low, which as Mike points out, could cost you a pump!

Thank you! Just ordered the pump and the hose. I’ll check the regs as well.