Phosphates tested at 1300 ppb, they want to see 300 ppb. So should I use a remover or change the water. It is causing the monitor to give me an error message saying the salt level is too high. Salt level tests perfect. Thanks for any help
Caldera “fresh water salt system” effected by high phosphate levels
- Thread starter MaureenD
- Start date
Says who ? The spa or the pool store ?
Says who ? The spa, the pool store, or a K-1766 test kit ?
If the spa is reading high salt, and a K-1766 disagrees, my money would be on a faulty sensor.
We went through all the electronics - meters, milliamps etc. switched out 9 salt cartridges (yes 9!) tested salt levels a dozen times (they never believe you) and then with their more accurate test (2x) and with their meter. The salt level is spot on. Swapped out the little black box - nope, had the panel off checking connections. (My husband is electric knowledgeable and he was involved.)
Tested new tap water with salt added in a container - no error, then tested tub water with high phosphate level and the error was repeated. Have hours into it. The only bad number was the phosphates?
Thanks
Tested new tap water with salt added in a container - no error, then tested tub water with high phosphate level and the error was repeated. Have hours into it. The only bad number was the phosphates?
Thanks
Yeah, what Newdude is getting at is that phosphates aren't commonly a problem when the device reading is *off*.
You won't know unless you test your salt reading with a good drop test for salt- Taylor's K-1766 test is the one we recommend.
How often do you change the water? When did you last change it and refresh the salt/cya etc?
You won't know unless you test your salt reading with a good drop test for salt- Taylor's K-1766 test is the one we recommend.
How often do you change the water? When did you last change it and refresh the salt/cya etc?
Ok, I don’t know much about this stuff but from what I understand these systems “assume” the salinity level by measuring current through the cell. There’s no separate salinity sensor. The mfg stated that the high phosphate levels can screw with the current reading - hence the original question. We are have a bit of a warm spell here in NH so if changing the water (which is about 4 months old) is a better option than using a phosphate remover I want to do it before we get back into single digits.
All my numbers are good even though I have been chasing the chlorine levels around for the 5 weeks this has been going on.
All my numbers are good even though I have been chasing the chlorine levels around for the 5 weeks this has been going on.
Ok, GREAT.
Details matter. I wouldn't have gone through 90% of your efforts. Water is cheap in the Northeast and you can't ever 'waste' it. You return it from wherst it came, one way or the other.
I haven't read every post here, but I'm getting there. I haven't seen one where phosphates mattered for salinity. I've only seen a 3 fingered handful (fireworks accident) that phosphates mattered at all, but the pool stores sure do LOVE to make them out to be the bad guy.
If the phosphate part was true, with ooooooooooooodles of SWGs here, we'd have that problem arise alot. Especially because most of us never test or treat them.
You're correct about the electrical salt reading VS a chemical reading.
- Jun 1, 2018
- 16,019
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
I agree with the sentiment to purge, drain & refill to attempt to remedy the issue - especially if you haven’t purged your new spa with Ahhsome yet. As even brand new spas can have biofilms 
Are you using sequestrants? If so - maybe skip that upon refill unless you’re certain you actually have a metals problem. Are you on well water?
www.troublefreepool.com
www.troublefreepool.com
Are you using sequestrants? If so - maybe skip that upon refill unless you’re certain you actually have a metals problem. Are you on well water?
Phosphate Removers - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
Sequestrant - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
- Jun 1, 2018
- 16,019
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Also, what are all your other results from your tf100?
Fc
Cc
Ph
Ta
Ch
Cya
Keep in mind that salt strips & properly calibrated meters can be +- 500ppm for accuracy
Whereas the k1766 is around +-200ppm.
In a small spa the salt from your sweat, acid, & chlorine additions can throw you over the threshold if you were riding at the top already.
Being that the target salt level for that system is only 1750ppm there’s not alot of wiggle room.
Fc
Cc
Ph
Ta
Ch
Cya
Keep in mind that salt strips & properly calibrated meters can be +- 500ppm for accuracy
Whereas the k1766 is around +-200ppm.
In a small spa the salt from your sweat, acid, & chlorine additions can throw you over the threshold if you were riding at the top already.
Being that the target salt level for that system is only 1750ppm there’s not alot of wiggle room.
Did you use the Vanishing Act calcium remover?
What is the active ingredient in the Vanishing Act Product?
What is the phosphate test level for the tap water?
What is the salinity of the tap water?
Can you describe all chemicals that have been added and exactly how much?
What test kit is being used to test the phosphate levels?
What is the active ingredient in the Vanishing Act Product?
What is the phosphate test level for the tap water?
What is the salinity of the tap water?
Can you describe all chemicals that have been added and exactly how much?
What test kit is being used to test the phosphate levels?
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Does it just say "Too High" or does it give a reading?
Ask them exactly how it "screws" with the readings.
What salt test kit are you using and what salinity level are you getting?
What salt test kit or salt meter is the store using and what salinity reading are they getting?
You should get a K-1766 salt test kit and a calibrated meter like the
Salt20 Value Salinity Pocket Tester Meter-Apera Instruments
The Apera Instruments Salt20 Value Salinity Pocket Tester is simply the most reliable pocket salinity tester with the best value for all kinds of regular salinity testing, including tap water, agriculture, aquaculture, education, etc.
aperainst.com
EC60 Premium Portable Pocket Conductivity/TDS/Salinity Meter/Tester Kit-Apera Instruments
The Apera Instruments EC60 Portable Pocket EC/TDS/Salinity Meter/Tester simply tests all kinds of regular conductivity measurements in an ACCURATE, QUICK, and RELIABLE manner.
aperainst.com
PC60 Premium Multiparameter (pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature) Pocket Tester/Meter Kit-Apera Instruments
The Apera Instruments PC60 Multi-parameter Tester/Meter simply tests pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature for regular aqueous solutions such as hydroponics, aquaculture, pools& spas, tap/drinking water, water treatment, cooling towers, etc.
aperainst.com
Our resident supergenius @JoyfulNoise recommends the PC60.
JoyfulNoise
www.troublefreepool.com
Taylor K-1766 Salt Test Kit
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Did you measure the output voltage and amperage?
www.calderaspas.com
Hot Tub Spa Manuals | Caldera Spas & Hot Tubs
Refer to the Caldera Spa collection of hot tub owner's manuals and instructions for questions you have regarding product functioning and maintenance.
www.calderaspas.com
Is this what your cartridge looks like?
Is it clean or scaled?
Can you show a picture of the cartridge?
Is it clean or scaled?
Can you show a picture of the cartridge?
Wow - a surge! I can’t answer all of these questions at the moment. And I know I am responding to multiple people but the more info the better.
I did not speak to the mfg tech personally, the owner of our dealership was here for 2 hours repeating all the things we had done ourselves and a few more. I don’t know what brand his water testing meter was (and when I bring in my monthly sample they use a computer testing system). He called Watson from my home so we only heard 1/2 of the conversation. We did all the electronic testing with an amp meter. I don’t understand electro-chemical reactions so I have no idea how phosphates could disrupt the electrical current signal to the salt monitoring system.
The salt cell is getting a current, as I mentioned. We remade salt water from fresh, tested it with the spa owners test and it read the same as the tub water for salinity based on the same testing method. Then we did a “bucket” test of the salt cell in the newly made salted water and the readout was perfect. The bucket test was repeated with water from the tub (with the only “bad” number being the phosphates) and we got the “high salt” error message.
I only received one phosphate test strip with the new tub, used it on the tub water - it was from a LaMotte Insta-Test low range phosphate test kit. Will be getting more tomorrow to test the tap water, or should I get a different brand?
Tap water salinity <500ppm
Did not use the Vanishing Act - CH 50 out of faucet.
I did use Ahhsome before I filled the new tub for use.
I do not use sequestration - copper and iron test 0, no other metals have been tested for.
Last CYA test result was 35 on 12/20. I don’t test this frequently only after several “top offs”. It had dropped to 20 when I tested it on the 19th so I added dichlor. It needed a little chlorine anyway so it was no problem.
Today
FC 5-6
CC .5
PH 7.6
TA 60
CH 50
I test pH and chlorine daily whether I use the tub or not
I have recently started testing the TA weekly since I have a pretty good handle on when I need to tweak it.
Yesterday I added 2oz of 12% liquid chlorine - like I said, I am chasing the chlorine around since the salt system isn’t working properly. It will be ok for a few days or so and then will drop over nite.
Newdude - water here is free (well) but electricity to pump it out and energy to heat it is outrageous here in New Hampshire
but I suspect I may just decide to change the water. We’ll see if anyone else can come up with a better idea. Important to get a tap water phosphate level I think before I proceed.
Thank you all so much, may the Lord return the blessing to you, Maureen - off to bed
I did not speak to the mfg tech personally, the owner of our dealership was here for 2 hours repeating all the things we had done ourselves and a few more. I don’t know what brand his water testing meter was (and when I bring in my monthly sample they use a computer testing system). He called Watson from my home so we only heard 1/2 of the conversation. We did all the electronic testing with an amp meter. I don’t understand electro-chemical reactions so I have no idea how phosphates could disrupt the electrical current signal to the salt monitoring system.
The salt cell is getting a current, as I mentioned. We remade salt water from fresh, tested it with the spa owners test and it read the same as the tub water for salinity based on the same testing method. Then we did a “bucket” test of the salt cell in the newly made salted water and the readout was perfect. The bucket test was repeated with water from the tub (with the only “bad” number being the phosphates) and we got the “high salt” error message.
I only received one phosphate test strip with the new tub, used it on the tub water - it was from a LaMotte Insta-Test low range phosphate test kit. Will be getting more tomorrow to test the tap water, or should I get a different brand?
Tap water salinity <500ppm
Did not use the Vanishing Act - CH 50 out of faucet.
I did use Ahhsome before I filled the new tub for use.
I do not use sequestration - copper and iron test 0, no other metals have been tested for.
Last CYA test result was 35 on 12/20. I don’t test this frequently only after several “top offs”. It had dropped to 20 when I tested it on the 19th so I added dichlor. It needed a little chlorine anyway so it was no problem.
Today
FC 5-6
CC .5
PH 7.6
TA 60
CH 50
I test pH and chlorine daily whether I use the tub or not
I have recently started testing the TA weekly since I have a pretty good handle on when I need to tweak it.
Yesterday I added 2oz of 12% liquid chlorine - like I said, I am chasing the chlorine around since the salt system isn’t working properly. It will be ok for a few days or so and then will drop over nite.
Newdude - water here is free (well) but electricity to pump it out and energy to heat it is outrageous here in New Hampshire
but I suspect I may just decide to change the water. We’ll see if anyone else can come up with a better idea. Important to get a tap water phosphate level I think before I proceed.Thank you all so much, may the Lord return the blessing to you, Maureen - off to bed
You need the K-1766 to get an accurate reading on the chloride level.
A salinity meter will measure the conductivity of the water to determine salinity.
The salinity meter measures all TDS components, which is a different way to test for salinity.
This difference is critical to understanding the makeup of the TDS.
If the salinity readings are the same, then you can be reasonably sure about the salinity.
If the numbers are significantly different, then that points to something in the water increasing the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) other than salt.
I know that it seems like a lot, but you and your husband have already done a lot of work including with the service people and manufacturers with no solution.
In my opinion, you need a good calibrated meter and a K-1766 to get reliable measurements that can determine what salinity is.
In my opinion, the phosphate level has nothing to do with the high salt error.
In my opinion, the salinity is either too high or the system is defective.
Salinity is actually more difficult to measure accurately than most people know and test strips are not going to be accurate enough.
Taylor K-1766 Salt Test Kit
EC60 Premium Portable Pocket Conductivity/TDS/Salinity Meter/Tester Kit-Apera Instruments
The Apera Instruments EC60 Portable Pocket EC/TDS/Salinity Meter/Tester simply tests all kinds of regular conductivity measurements in an ACCURATE, QUICK, and RELIABLE manner.
aperainst.com
Phosphate cannot cause the salinity to read higher than it is.
It can combine with calcium to form calcium phosphate scale on the cell plates, but that would cause the salinity reading to be low, not high.
You would be able to see a significant buildup of scale.
In any case the multiple new cells would not instantly scale up enough to affect the production of chlorine or the salinity reading.
In my opinion, the actual salinity or TDS is higher than the tests indicate or the salt system is defective in some way.
Maybe there is a setting or configuration problem?
It can combine with calcium to form calcium phosphate scale on the cell plates, but that would cause the salinity reading to be low, not high.
You would be able to see a significant buildup of scale.
In any case the multiple new cells would not instantly scale up enough to affect the production of chlorine or the salinity reading.
In my opinion, the actual salinity or TDS is higher than the tests indicate or the salt system is defective in some way.
Maybe there is a setting or configuration problem?
- Mar 5, 2020
- 3,221
- Pool Size
- 66000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Astral Viron V35
@JamesW is always serious. Well, unless he's not, which does happen according to rumour. But I'm pretty sure he's seriously being serious here.
What he didn't mention is, that he's the other resident supergenius, so when he chimes in you're getting good advice. Seriously.