Bullfrog Hot Tub SWCG Conversion

[bacontrees]

Long-time lurker on the forums, and I recently got my R7L w/ EOS (ozone)/CP from a great and knowledgeable local dealer.

I know I could easily get pretty much any SWCG unit and drape it over, but I'm an engineer and perfectionist, and that's not my style.

I'd like to get something hardwired/hidden/in-line -- looking at ControlOMatic (not sure yet on SmarterSpa vs ChlorMaker -- sensor vs timer operation), and it should be easy enough to install one right after the CP and have chlorine generation in the perfect place.

Here's my conundrum:

With an in-line system there must not be chlorine generation in non-moving water. Hydrogen is a byproduct of SWCG and of course is dangerous in high concentrations, and chlorine itself as I understand it is pretty corrosive and generally bad in higher concentrations as well. So I need to make sure the SWCG power is only on when there's flowing water (CP on). I can do this easily enough with a PP1 AMP splitter or similar, but what I'd really love to do is have CP run 24/7, and have ozone only run during filter cycles. I know I can set a 24/7 filtration cycle, which will run both CP and ozone, but running ozone 24/7 is excessive, it'll wear out the CD ozone unit much more quickly, and it'll constantly eat all my FC, making it nearly impossible to maintain a residual without running the SWCG 24/7 (prematurely wearing out that unit out too).

If I could access the field programming options on the Gecko as outlined in the Start-up guide (in.yt / in.ye / in.yj — GeckoDocs) I could have a perfect, clean setup, but BF seems to have this locked out, and BF tech support either has no idea what I'm talking about or just won't tell me :-\

My current best ideas are:

1. Use PP1 or similar to tie SWCG power to CP power. I don't really like this, as CP comes on at random times, not just filtration cycles. With SWCG only being on with CP I will only be able to monitor/adjust its settings when the CP is on, which is inconvenient.

• If I go with a timer-based SWCG I'm going to get chlorine levels all over the place. Every time CP turns on SWCG will start a production cycle, which will be every filtration cycle, plus every 30 minutes for its heat check, plus whenever it's heating/cooling. Wildly unpredictable chlorine generation.
• If I go with a sensor-based SWCG I'm going to have the opposite. CP/SWCG turns on, and when chlorine is present SWCG will do nothing except monitor. After awhile chlorine level drops below threshold, SWCG starts producing. CP will turn off whenever it wants, and subsequently SWCG will turn off, very likely before it can complete its chlorine generation.

2. Use PP1 or similar to tie SWCG to ozone power. This is a better idea but still not perfect, as I have the same problem of only being able to monitor/adjust its settings when ozone is on, and I'd have the same problem with a sensor-based SWCG. It'll work with a timer-based SWCG, but not sensor-based, and it's just not perfect.

3. Find a constant power source in the spa pack and tie both CP and SWCG to this. This might be a viable option as well, but I did not see the constant 120v AMP output referenced in the BF/Gecko manual when I was in there for initial hookup. But I'll give it another look. This would be the only scenario I could use a sensor-based SWCG, which is attractive to me, because I could theoretically keep a very very low chlorine residual since I have powerful/effective ozone with EOS combined with mineral sanitizer.

Sorry for the long read, if you read it. I would be forever grateful if you would give me any input.

 

[livinwell]

I’m very interested in your pursuit. Hopefully others will join the discussion.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Just to clarify- is this for a hot tub or pool?

Maddie

 

[livinwell]

Just to clarify- is this for a hot tub or pool?

Hi Maddie - bull frog hot tub. They don’t have swcg.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I have powerful/effective ozone with EOS combined with mineral sanitizer.

B,

Marketing is a wonderful thing, but there are not many fans of Ozone or Mineral systems here at TFP... You should read our Pool School.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bacontrees]

B,

Marketing is a wonderful thing, but there are not many fans of Ozone or Mineral systems here at TFP... You should read our Pool School.

Thanks,

Jim R.

I totally get that, and I've read nearly every one of Chem_Geek's posts/comments. I may be new to this, but I don't believe I'm uneducated or under-informed.

Mineral is inexpensive (less than $80/year if I change at recommended intervals). Marketing aside, there's a reason Frog @ease is EPA approved to keep water sanitized with only .5-1ppm FC, and that's the addition of silver ions. So I don't believe one can say, in a hot tub, minerals are not helpful.

I also believe a proper ozone system can keep a hot tub cleaner. There's a huge difference between a 400 gallon hot tub with a filtration pump that can turn over all the water 12x/hour and a giant pool.

Ozone kills and oxidizes almost everything immediately. Chlorine kills bacteria more slowly than ozone and acts even more slowly as an oxidizer. Yes, with most ozone systems the majority of the water never comes in contact with the ozone, and the ozone can off-gas and eat away at the cover/pillows. But EOS is inarguably more effective than a "typical" ozone system, with a mixing chamber and off-gas chamber. During a filtration cycle nearly all of my water will come into contact with ozone 12/x hour. I have filtration cycles running a few hours after each soaking session (2 person-hours both morning and night). My ozone quickly and effectively oxidizes all of our bather waste, leaving a lesser chlorine demand and cleaner water overall.

 

[bacontrees]

I’m very interested in your pursuit. Hopefully others will join the discussion.

Thanks for the interest; I'll be sure to update.

I know at least a few others here are using SWCG in their tubs and seem to love them. At least one other is using the SmarterSpa as well, and he seems to think it's great.

I ordered the SmarterSpa over the weekend and hope to receive it this week. I also ordered a small 5v Meanwell transformer that I'm going to put in a waterproof junction box for a clean, hardwired power supply.

For now I'm going to drape the cell over the side into the filter compartment (there's a decent gap/wiggle room in the compartment cover), and assuming that works well over the next few months I'll probably drill through the shell for a perfect installation.

 

[Jimrahbe]

B,

If you look at my post again, I never said you were "uneducated or under-informed", I simply said you will not find many fans of alternate sanitizers here at TFP, and that is still true..

Our main goal is to educate people on how to use chlorine to sanitize their pools or spas.

We have zero problems with you sanitizing your pool or spa anyway you want.. As long as it works for you, it works for us.

We will not, however, support or promote alternate sanitizing methods.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bacontrees]

B,

If you look at my post again, I never said you were "uneducated or under-informed", I simply said you will not find many fans of alternate sanitizers here at TFP, and that is still true..

Our main goal is to educate people on how to use chlorine to sanitize their pools or spas.

We have zero problems with you sanitizing your pool or spa anyway you want.. As long as it works for you, it works for us.

We will not, however, support or promote alternate sanitizing methods.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim,

I did not mean to put words in your mouth or start any kind of argument -- just trying to explain a little about my current level of knowledge. I'm totally new to this, but I have done a lot of research. But I definitely understand there's still a lot more to learn!

Anyway, I think we got a little off topic. I appreciate any advice you (and others) have on the best SWCG setup. If the main goal of TFP is to "educate people on how to use chlorine..." then you're doing an excellent job.

-JP

 

[GamecockTim]

Trees,
I have a 450g spa with Ozonator and drapeover Megachlor with Chlorine detection. Love how I can set it low (preserving cell life) and it’s automatic operation (Travel a lot for work, no issues). I don’t worry about the drapeover unit, hardly notice it when in the spa.

 

[bacontrees]

Trees,
I have a 450g spa with Ozonator and drapeover Megachlor with Chlorine detection. Love how I can set it low (preserving cell life) and it’s automatic operation (Travel a lot for work, no issues). I don’t worry about the drapeover unit, hardly notice it when in the spa.

Yeah I'm leaning more towards just draping over. There's actually a decent gap in the filter compartment cover that the cord fits in, and I can barely see it.

Unfortunately the unit I got was damaged (looks like not enough epoxy covering the sensor leads, and water is making its way to the electrical connection), and it's not reading sanitizer voltage correctly. So it's constantly producing Chlorine. Luckily I noticed before it got crazy high (6PPM), removed it, and they're sending me a new electrode assembly. I just slathered on a bunch of epoxy as well, so I can hopefully get the original working and have a spare.

 

[jseyfert3]

My two cents, also as a (mechanical) engineer...

I found TFP before I bought our Intex inflatable spa because I was reading into water care and found a whole bunch of websites saying how I needed 6-10 chemicals to care for my spa. Coincidentally these sites also sold these chemicals. I thought there had to be a better way, and so did some more searching and eventually found this place.

Once we got our Intex spa, I got to work balancing the water as per TFP instructions. It went great. I used dichlor at first, then bleach when I reached the recommended 30 ppm of CYA. Muriatic acid/aeration to get the TA in line. A little bit of baking soda if I got a little carried away in the acid addition for the acid/aeration part of initial water balance. And I added some borates (which I later scrapped with no noticeable differences). This, combined with a quality test kit and the knowledge on this site, allowed me to easily maintain crystal clear water, with a rock solid pH. The only times I had cloudy water was if I forgot to add chlorine after a long period of not using the tub (~1 week or so), but this quickly cleared up on addition of chlorine.

Dichlor, muriatic acid, bleach, and a good test kit. That's all I need to maintain my tub. What could be simpler? A SWCG! Our future house comes with what will be our first "real" spa, and I'm planning on adding a SWCG (most likely a Saltron Mini) very shortly after getting it, although I did see the SmarterSpa today and was intrigued, but I'll discuss that a bit more in a minute.

If I could access the field programming options on the Gecko as outlined in the Start-up guide (in.yt / in.ye / in.yj — GeckoDocs) I could have a perfect, clean setup, but BF seems to have this locked out, and BF tech support either has no idea what I'm talking about or just won't tell me :-\

Note that same guide also says the field programming is only available on specific keypads. I'm not surprised it's not available or locked out for a consumer.

PP1 AMP splitter

What is this? I couldn't find it via a quick search.

I totally get that, and I've read nearly every one of Chem_Geek's posts/comments.

...yet you're still using lots of ozone and @ease?

Mineral is inexpensive (less than $80/year if I change at recommended intervals). Marketing aside, there's a reason Frog @ease is EPA approved to keep water sanitized with only .5-1ppm FC, and that's the addition of silver ions. So I don't believe one can say, in a hot tub, minerals are not helpful.

I'm pretty sure most health codes (and the EPA) allow 1 ppm FC by itself, so saying it is approved at "only" 0.5-1 ppm isn't saying much of anything. Just because something is inexpensive doesn't mean it should be used.

More on Chem Geek and @ease later on.

I also believe a proper ozone system can keep a hot tub cleaner. There's a huge difference between a 400 gallon hot tub with a filtration pump that can turn over all the water 12x/hour and a giant pool.

Ozone can have its place. It's primarily useful, along with UV, for breaking down combined chlorine (CC) and bather waste, particularily on indoor spas with heavy bather loads. If the spa is outdoors, opening the lid while it's sunny gets you UV and does the exact same thing though. But as you already realize, too much needlessly breaks down FC though. Neither can be used in place of a proper sanitizer in the water.

Other things like MPS can also assist with breaking down bather waste and reducing chlorine demand, so it's not limited to ozone by any means. (though MPS will require a special regent to remove the false CC reading from the CC test)

I ordered the SmarterSpa over the weekend and hope to receive it this week

A note on this. I couldn't find, by quickly looking, how it measures the FC level. If it's an ORP probe, then note that CYA will screw up the reading from the ORP probe. Also note from what I've read, ORP probes in general are finicky and short lived, and so are generally only used when required by local health codes in commercial pools. Both of these are reasons I likely will go with a "dumb" SWCG like a Saltron Mini and use either a smart timer or a custom built Arduino controller to make it a bit "smarter" and more automatic. Basically I want the ability to add a set or adjustable amount "one time" after getting out of the tub, while maintaining a much lower daily maintenance dose. If they use some other, more reliable method of FC detection that isn't screwed up by CYA, then I'd jump at the SmarterSpa, but somehow I doubt that.

Okay, a few other (but important) thoughts:

@ease and CYA: I want you to make note of the fact that @ease does not add CYA. in fact, they specifically advertise that, saying how CYA makes FC less effective. This is true, but only to a point, and not a good reason to not have any CYA. Say you maintain 0.5 ppm of FC with the @ease and no CYA. You will have harsher chlorine than if you used the TFP recommended FC level with CYA. FTP recommends a minimum of 30 ppm CYA in any spa, with a corresponding FC target level of 4-6 ppm. Take a look at this post by chem geek. I want you to note the graph of HOCl vs FC at various CYA levels. 0.5 ppm of FC with no CYA has more HOCl than 5 ppm of FC at 30 ppm of CYA! HOCl, as you probably know, is both the primary sanitizer with chlorine and also what gives chlorine water it's "harshness". The rest of the chlorine is bound up with the CYA, and is released when the HOCl levels drop, effectively creating a "reserve" of FC, while keeping it from being as harsh to you. In fact, with 30 ppm of CYA, you require 12 ppm of of FC to get the same HOCl levels as 0.5 ppm FC with no CYA! (values approximate, as it's hard to get exact values off a log/log chart) This means that there is no advantage to the low FC levels of @ease, except for marketing reasons, as you'd be better off with some CYA and a higher FC level.

@ease and CC: @ease uses an odd form of chlorine (it's used in toilet automatic cleaning pucks) that completely screws up the CC test. Because of this, you will be unable to test for CCs, an important part in making sure you sanitizer is working properly and you have safe water.

@ease and SWCG: If @ease is so great, then why add a SWCG? After all, @ease advertises that you can use only the @ease along with monthly shocking.

Ultimately, as @Jimrahbe says, it's your spa, you can maintain it however you like, but there is (in my mind) nothing that is going to be safer, easier, and cheaper than following the advise here on TFP. You're obviously a smart person, don't let that make you over-analyze your water care into something much more complicated, and possibly not as good, as the methods we lay out on this site.

 

[bacontrees]

My two cents, also as a (mechanical) engineer...

I found TFP before I bought our Intex inflatable spa because I was reading into water care and found a whole bunch of websites saying how I needed 6-10 chemicals to care for my spa. Coincidentally these sites also sold these chemicals. I thought there had to be a better way, and so did some more searching and eventually found this place.

Once we got our Intex spa, I got to work balancing the water as per TFP instructions. It went great. I used dichlor at first, then bleach when I reached the recommended 30 ppm of CYA. Muriatic acid/aeration to get the TA in line. A little bit of baking soda if I got a little carried away in the acid addition for the acid/aeration part of initial water balance. And I added some borates (which I later scrapped with no noticeable differences). This, combined with a quality test kit and the knowledge on this site, allowed me to easily maintain crystal clear water, with a rock solid pH. The only times I had cloudy water was if I forgot to add chlorine after a long period of not using the tub (~1 week or so), but this quickly cleared up on addition of chlorine.

Dichlor, muriatic acid, bleach, and a good test kit. That's all I need to maintain my tub. What could be simpler? A SWCG! Our future house comes with what will be our first "real" spa, and I'm planning on adding a SWCG (most likely a Saltron Mini) very shortly after getting it, although I did see the SmarterSpa today and was intrigued, but I'll discuss that a bit more in a minute.


Note that same guide also says the field programming is only available on specific keypads. I'm not surprised it's not available or locked out for a consumer.


What is this? I couldn't find it via a quick search.


...yet you're still using lots of ozone and @ease?


I'm pretty sure most health codes (and the EPA) allow 1 ppm FC by itself, so saying it is approved at "only" 0.5-1 ppm isn't saying much of anything. Just because something is inexpensive doesn't mean it should be used.

More on Chem Geek and @ease later on.


Ozone can have its place. It's primarily useful, along with UV, for breaking down combined chlorine (CC) and bather waste, particularily on indoor spas with heavy bather loads. If the spa is outdoors, opening the lid while it's sunny gets you UV and does the exact same thing though. But as you already realize, too much needlessly breaks down FC though. Neither can be used in place of a proper sanitizer in the water.

Other things like MPS can also assist with breaking down bather waste and reducing chlorine demand, so it's not limited to ozone by any means. (though MPS will require a special regent to remove the false CC reading from the CC test)


A note on this. I couldn't find, by quickly looking, how it measures the FC level. If it's an ORP probe, then note that CYA will screw up the reading from the ORP probe. Also note from what I've read, ORP probes in general are finicky and short lived, and so are generally only used when required by local health codes in commercial pools. Both of these are reasons I likely will go with a "dumb" SWCG like a Saltron Mini and use either a smart timer or a custom built Arduino controller to make it a bit "smarter" and more automatic. Basically I want the ability to add a set or adjustable amount "one time" after getting out of the tub, while maintaining a much lower daily maintenance dose. If they use some other, more reliable method of FC detection that isn't screwed up by CYA, then I'd jump at the SmarterSpa, but somehow I doubt that.

Okay, a few other (but important) thoughts:

@ease and CYA: I want you to make note of the fact that @ease does not add CYA. in fact, they specifically advertise that, saying how CYA makes FC less effective. This is true, but only to a point, and not a good reason to not have any CYA. Say you maintain 0.5 ppm of FC with the @ease and no CYA. You will have harsher chlorine than if you used the TFP recommended FC level with CYA. FTP recommends a minimum of 30 ppm CYA in any spa, with a corresponding FC target level of 4-6 ppm. Take a look at this post by chem geek. I want you to note the graph of HOCl vs FC at various CYA levels. 0.5 ppm of FC with no CYA has more HOCl than 5 ppm of FC at 30 ppm of CYA! HOCl, as you probably know, is both the primary sanitizer with chlorine and also what gives chlorine water it's "harshness". The rest of the chlorine is bound up with the CYA, and is released when the HOCl levels drop, effectively creating a "reserve" of FC, while keeping it from being as harsh to you. In fact, with 30 ppm of CYA, you require 12 ppm of of FC to get the same HOCl levels as 0.5 ppm FC with no CYA! (values approximate, as it's hard to get exact values off a log/log chart) This means that there is no advantage to the low FC levels of @ease, except for marketing reasons, as you'd be better off with some CYA and a higher FC level.

@ease and CC: @ease uses an odd form of chlorine (it's used in toilet automatic cleaning pucks) that completely screws up the CC test. Because of this, you will be unable to test for CCs, an important part in making sure you sanitizer is working properly and you have safe water.

@ease and SWCG: If @ease is so great, then why add a SWCG? After all, @ease advertises that you can use only the @ease along with monthly shocking.

Ultimately, as @Jimrahbe says, it's your spa, you can maintain it however you like, but there is (in my mind) nothing that is going to be safer, easier, and cheaper than following the advise here on TFP. You're obviously a smart person, don't let that make you over-analyze your water care into something much more complicated, and possibly not as good, as the methods we lay out on this site.

PP-1 AMP splitter:GECKO CABLE SPLITTER PP-1 AMP MALE TO 2 FEMALE, LENGTH 6'' 9920-401369

I ended up using a standard .25" female quick disconnect terminal to rewire the circ pump to constant voltage. I did some calculations, and it should only be about $8/mo extra to run it 24/7, and I will see better filtration.

I'm not going to bother to look it up, but chem_geek says in a hot tub ozone will lessen chlorine demand when the tub is frequently used. And it's absolutely a far better/quicker oxidizer than chlorine. So breaking down oils, lotions, other waste I will absolutely see a benefit here. Most ozone systems can't claim a huge benefit because the ozone doesn't come in contact with most of the water. With my system's mixing chamber and 35GPM pump ozone should come in contact with all the spa water almost 10x during a standard 2 hour filtration cycle. Sure some of my chlorine will be destroyed in the process, but as a twice daily user (2 people) my overall chlorine demand should be less, and waste that's difficult for chlorine to oxidize will certainly be reduced.

I'm not using @ease -- not sure where you got that idea. I do think it's a great idea, but at almost $300/year in cartridges, not to mention the waste of said cartridges, I am not going that route. The SmarterSpa will give me the same results for less than the cost of dichlor/bleach method over time. I'm trying to achieve a chlorination result similar to what @ease provides: a constant .5ppm-1ppm FC residual. And I have achieved that with my SmarterSpa system. It took a few days of testing, but I've got my zero point adjusted so that it starts a chlorine generation cycle when FC is around .5ppm and runs for 3 hours, leaving about 1.5ppm. SmarterSpa recommends 0 CYA, and I don't believe @ease says anything about CYA specifically, although their startup shock is dichlor, so there will be some CYA. My plan is to keep CYA around 5-10ppm.

Right now I've got what I consider a great system in place. My water is clean, feels great, and maintains a constant low FC residual. No harsh smells or anything negative I've noticed. I don't have to do anything except check pH occasionally, and if you search you'll see other happy SmarterSpa owners as well. I am curious as to why the SmarterSpa specifically recommends 0 CYA, but I'm willing to give it a shot, and it's easier to add later than take out.

 

[jseyfert3]

Like I said, you can do what you want. Good luck!