Bubbler Plumbing/Pump Question

[dag212]

I’m building an L shaped 55,000-gallon pool with a tanning ledge that will have 2 bubblers. The bubblers will connect to a manifold then to 2” pipe to the pad. 4 skimmers including 1 in the tanning ledge and 7 wall returns including 1 in the tanning ledge will also be independently plumbed back to the pad. I'm using 2” pipe, sweep elbows everywhere and I'm putting valves on each leg at the pad. I have not calculated head and I realize this is an important variable that will effect things along with desired plume height so I am just looking for some general advice. Do most agree I should probably use a booster pump for the bubblers?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[PoolGate]

"A" booster pump? You have left the realm of private pools and are in the commercial arena. 15k-25k gallons is typical. 35k is big. 55k gallons is enormous. You will need to at least double almost everything for that build. Are you doing this yourself or have a pool builder?

 

[dag212]

"A" booster pump? You have left the realm of private pools and are in the commercial arena. 15k-25k gallons is typical. 35k is big. 55k gallons is enormous. You will need to at least double almost everything for that build. Are you doing this yourself or have a pool builder?

I’m a contractor just not in the pool industry. Doing the plumbing myself and contracting most other out. Booster pump might not be the correct term. I’m trying to confirm if I should put the bubblers on a separate pump with a valve/actuator. I want to be able to turn them on and off and make sure they have a good plume height. Not sure what you mean about doubling everything. I have done the math on GPM /turnover rate with approximate head and a reasonable margin of error. Feel free to tell me if I am missing something but according to the math I have done I should be ok.

 

[ajw22]

What bubbler are you using?

Have you looked in the bubbler installation manual for the flow requirements for the bubbler?

The manual should give you the flow necessary for whatever plume height you desire.

Knowing all that then we can discuss the necessary plumbing and pump.

 

[PoolGate]

I’m a contractor just not in the pool industry. Doing the plumbing myself and contracting most other out. Booster pump might not be the correct term. I’m trying to confirm if I should put the bubblers on a separate pump with a valve/actuator. I want to be able to turn them on and off and make sure they have a good plume height. Not sure what you mean about doubling everything. I have done the math on GPM /turnover rate with approximate head and a reasonable margin of error. Feel free to tell me if I am missing something but according to the math I have done I should be ok.

My point is your pool is very large with a lot of returns. It is twice the average sized home pool. I suspect you will need an extra pump dedicated to the bubblers. Any reason you are making it that big?

 

[dag212]

My point is your pool is very large with a lot of returns. It is twice the average sized home pool. I suspect you will need an extra pump dedicated to the bubblers. Any reason you are making it that big?

It started as a 20 x 40 then evolved from there. My kids want a deep end with a diving board, my wife wants a decent sized tanning ledge and I want more length for laps and enough non deep area to play volleyball.

 

[dag212]

What bubbler are you using?

Have you looked in the bubbler installation manual for the flow requirements for the bubbler?

The manual should give you the flow necessary for whatever plume height you desire.

Knowing all that then we can discuss the necessary plumbing and pump.

Thanks for your help. I have bitten off more than expected here with the size and scope of this project but need to get it done. I’m using Pentair Color Vision bubblers which come with ½” & ¾” nozzle options and a 1-1/2” water supply connection. According to the product info a plume height of 16” to 18” in my 8” water depth requires 17 GPM for the ½” or 31 GPM for the ¾” nozzle. I’m assuming the larger nozzle produces a larger plume so I will probably go that route. Some overall context of my plumbing/control plan, I will be using the Pentair EasyTouch 8 for pool/spa control. The spa is detached from the pool and will get year-round use. The pool will be closed in the winter. Initially, my plan was to isolate the spa filtration circuit from the jet circuit so spa filtration & heating could be accomplished by the shared filter, heater and salt system but I'm not sure this is feasible without a spillover. I have an Intelliflow VS 3HP for the pool, a separate Intelliflow VSF 3HP for the spa. My understanding based on the EasyTouch product info is that if needed a 3rd pump for bubblers can be controlled by the system as long as it is 1 or 2 speed only which should be fine. I'm pretty sure I need the 3rd pump for the bubblers, not sure how to plumb it. I have separate suction and return in the tanning ledge so the bubblers are not part of filtration. Should the bubbler circuit go through the filter or can it be isolated with it's own suction inlets and not go through the filter? I'm trying to do things the right way for the long term.

 

[PoolGate]

Thanks for your help. I have bitten off more than expected here but need to get it done right. I’m using Pentair Color Vision bubblers which come with ½” & ¾” nozzle options and a 1-1/2” water supply connection. According to the product info a plume height of 16” to 18” in my 8” water depth requires 17 GPM for the ½” or 31 GPM for the ¾” nozzle. I’m assuming the larger nozzle produces a larger plume so I will probably go that route. I will be using the Pentair EasyTouch 8 for pool/spa control. The spa is detached from the pool and will get year round use. The pool will be closed in the winter. Initially, my plan was to isolate the spa filtration circuit from the jet circuit so spa filtration could be accomplished by the pool pump and valve control. I was trying to share the filter, heater and salt system between the two bodies but I'm not sure this is feasible with no spillover. Even if there is a plumbed spillover I'm not sure if it is recommended to spill spa water into a closed pool in the winter. Just to review I have an Intelliflow VS 3HP for the pool, a seperate Intelliflow VSF 3HP for the spa. My understanding based on the EasyTouch product info is that if needed a 3rd pump for bubblers can be controlled by the system as long as it is 1 or 2 speed only which should be fine. I'm pretty sure I need the 3rd pump for the bubblers, not sure how to plumb it.

Do you have a build thread on this yet? I would love to follow along as a fellow MD resident. Keep in mind you are going to have a very high run-rate with that pool. MD is a hard-freeze state so to keep the spa open in the winter is going to cost a lot in natural gas. On the order of $500+ per month. All in all with what you describe I would figure $1k/month to add to your budget for the pool. Electric will run $300 or so a month, gas $500 or so. For reference, my pool added $500/month (every month, not just pool season months) to my budget. And I close completely in the off-season.

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for your help. I have bitten off more than expected here but need to get it done. I’m using Pentair Color Vision bubblers which come with ½” & ¾” nozzle options and a 1-1/2” water supply connection. According to the product info a plume height of 16” to 18” in my 8” water depth requires 17 GPM for the ½” or 31 GPM for the ¾” nozzle. I’m assuming the larger nozzle produces a larger plume so I will probably go that route.

With two blubbers you are going to need the pump to push 60+ GPM. That requires a dedicated pump for the water features.

Your bubblers are going to be in the pool? So only run when the pool is open?

Some overall context of my plumbing/control plan, I will be using the Pentair EasyTouch 8 for pool/spa control. The spa is detached from the pool and will get year-round use. The pool will be closed in the winter.

I would get an IntelliCenter i10D for a dual equipment system.

Read the https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...em_Load_Center_Installation_Guide_English.pdf and see page 33. The IntelliTouch i10+3D (P/N 521222) is designed to operate two sets of pool equipment. Not the EasyTouch.

But the IntelliTouch is 20+ year old technology and I would not recommend anyone install it on a new pool now. Get the IntelliCenter i10D for a dual equipment pool.

Initially, my plan was to isolate the spa filtration circuit from the jet circuit so spa filtration & heating could be accomplished by the shared filter, heater and salt system but I'm not sure this is feasible without a spillover.

It is not.

I have an Intelliflow VS 3HP for the pool, a separate Intelliflow VSF 3HP for the spa. My understanding based on the EasyTouch product info is that if needed a 3rd pump for bubblers can be controlled by the system as long as it is 1 or 2 speed only which should be fine. I'm pretty sure I need the 3rd pump for the bubblers, not sure how to plumb it. I have separate suction and return in the tanning ledge so the bubblers are not part of filtration. Should the bubbler circuit go through the filter or can it be isolated with it's own suction inlets and not go through the filter? I'm trying to do things the right way for the long term.

You need a separate suction intake on the side wall of the pool for the water feature pump and it should have a small debris filter on it. That is a separate water circuit from the main filter pump.

The third pump can be a VSP with the IntelliCenter.

 

[Toxophilite]

The bubblers will connect to a manifold then to 2” pipe to the pad.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

This was my manifold design for 2 bubblers. You want equalization looping. My waterfall and bubblers are on separate pump, 3hp VS, independent of pool system and filtration. Just suction and return to features with a valve to balance features.

 

[PCR]

I’m building an L shaped 55,000-gallon pool with a tanning ledge that will have 2 bubblers. The bubblers will connect to a manifold then to 2” pipe to the pad. 4 skimmers including 1 in the tanning ledge and 7 wall returns including 1 in the tanning ledge will also be independently plumbed back to the pad. I'm using 2” pipe, sweep elbows everywhere and I'm putting valves on each leg at the pad. I have not calculated head and I realize this is an important variable that will effect things along with desired plume height so I am just looking for some general advice. Do most agree I should probably use a booster pump for the bubblers?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

I am not any sort of expert at all when it comes to pool plumbing but I do have a somewhat similar pool but smaller at 40K gallons. I have two pentair color vision bubblers on my shelf, a waterfall, a slide along with six returns and three skimmers and a main drain. I have one intelliflo 3hp pump that runs only the waterfall and another intelliflo 3hp pump that runs everything else. My returns are grouped by twos - so three sets of two returns where the two returns are only a couple of feet apart inside the pool. Each set is plumbed together just outside the pool and comes back to the pad as one pipe. So I have three pipes/valves for my six returns at my equipment pad. (the number of returns and the way they are plumbed is just the way the pool builder did it - not because I asked for it that way). My main pump doesn’t have any problem running the bubblers along with the returns with a pretty tall plume from my nine inch deep shelf. I do have the rubber “tubes” on the bubblers that increase plume size - they came with the bubblers. If I turn my slide on as well, the slide valve is on an actuator and as the slide pipe is opened two sets of my returns are turned off. This allows the one pump to run the skimmers, bubblers, slide and two returns at the same time. You don’t need seven returns all running at once while you are running your bubblers so maybe you could plumb it so some returns are shut off when the bubblers are turned on rather than buying another pump just to run two bubblers.

oh, and you will not regret making sure you have enough space to play volleyball in the pool - it’s a blast! We do and I didn’t leave quite as much space as I should have for it but we still love it!

 

[dag212]

Do you have a build thread on this yet? I would love to follow along as a fellow MD resident. Keep in mind you are going to have a very high run-rate with that pool. MD is a hard-freeze state so to keep the spa open in the winter is going to cost a lot in natural gas. On the order of $500+ per month. All in all with what you describe I would figure $1k/month to add to your budget for the pool. Electric will run $300 or so a month, gas $500 or so. For reference, my pool added $500/month (every month, not just pool season months) to my budget. And I close completely in the off-season.

I believe the moderator moved this thread to the "Construction" section once the conversation went into a variety of build related topics so you should be able to follow there. I am surprised to hear how high your operating costs are for your pool even when closed. Why is that? I have been focused on planning, building, and operation to date so I do not yet know much about closing the pool for the winter. I'm hoping my operating costs are not that high with VS pumps. I designed the spa with fast heat up in mind so I do not have to keep it warm when not in use. I purchased a 400K BTU Gas Heater so according to the specs it can heat my 910 gallon spa 30 degrees every 42 minutes at a 120GPM flow rate which my plumbing plan will accommodate. Theoretically, I could keep the spa at 40 degrees when not in use the heat to 104 in about 95 minutes or so. I haven’t purchased a cover yet but I plan to get a good one.

With two blubbers you are going to need the pump to push 60+ GPM. That requires a dedicated pump for the water features.

Your bubblers are going to be in the pool? So only run when the pool is open?



I would get an IntelliCenter i10D for a dual equipment system.

Read the https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...em_Load_Center_Installation_Guide_English.pdf and see page 33. The IntelliTouch i10+3D (P/N 521222) is designed to operate two sets of pool equipment. Not the EasyTouch.

But the IntelliTouch is 20+ year old technology and I would not recommend anyone install it on a new pool now. Get the IntelliCenter i10D for a dual equipment pool.



It is not.



You need a separate suction intake on the side wall of the pool for the water feature pump and it should have a small debris filter on it. That is a separate water circuit from the main filter pump.

The third pump can be a VSP with the IntelliCenter.

 

[ajw22]

I I purchased a 400K BTU Gas Heater so according to the specs it can heat my 910 gallon spa 30 degrees every 42 minutes at a 120GPM flow rate which my plumbing plan will accommodate.

I doubt you can push more then around 80 gpm through a MasterTemp heater and filter setup.

Theoretically, I could keep the spa at 40 degrees when not in use the heat to 104 in about 95 minutes or so. I haven’t purchased a cover yet but I plan to get a good one.

See page 58 in https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...p/manual/Manual-MasterTemp-472592-English.pdf

Operating this heater continuously at water temperatures below 68° F. (20° C) will cause harmful condensation and will damage the heater and void the warranty.

When starting the heater for the swimming season with a water temperature below 50° F (10° C), the heater may be used to heat the water; however, make sure that the heater operates continuously until the water temperature reaches the heater’s minimum setting of 68° F (20° C). During cold weather, if there is no danger of freezing, operate the filter pump continuously even if the heater is not operating. If air temperatures are expected to drop below freezing (32° F/0° C), shut down the heater and winterize it.

Heater Condensation - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[PCR]

Thanks for your help. I have bitten off more than expected here with the size and scope of this project but need to get it done. I’m using Pentair Color Vision bubblers which come with ½” & ¾” nozzle options and a 1-1/2” water supply connection. According to the product info a plume height of 16” to 18” in my 8” water depth requires 17 GPM for the ½” or 31 GPM for the ¾” nozzle. I’m assuming the larger nozzle produces a larger plume so I will probably go that route. Some overall context of my plumbing/control plan, I will be using the Pentair EasyTouch 8 for pool/spa control. The spa is detached from the pool and will get year-round use. The pool will be closed in the winter. Initially, my plan was to isolate the spa filtration circuit from the jet circuit so spa filtration & heating could be accomplished by the shared filter, heater and salt system but I'm not sure this is feasible without a spillover. I have an Intelliflow VS 3HP for the pool, a separate Intelliflow VSF 3HP for the spa. My understanding based on the EasyTouch product info is that if needed a 3rd pump for bubblers can be controlled by the system as long as it is 1 or 2 speed only which should be fine. I'm pretty sure I need the 3rd pump for the bubblers, not sure how to plumb it. I have separate suction and return in the tanning ledge so the bubblers are not part of filtration. Should the bubbler circuit go through the filter or can it be isolated with it's own suction inlets and not go through the filter? I'm trying to do things the right way for the long term.

For a year round use spa that is detached from the pool, it seems like it would be a lot easier (and possibly cheaper) to buy a standalone hot tub and would give you a better spa experience as well.

 

[PoolGate]

I believe the moderator moved this thread to the "Construction" section once the conversation went into a variety of build related topics so you should be able to follow there. I am surprised to hear how high your operating costs are for your pool even when closed. Why is that? I have been focused on planning, building, and operation to date so I do not yet know much about closing the pool for the winter. I'm hoping my operating costs are not that high with VS pumps. I designed the spa with fast heat up in mind so I do not have to keep it warm when not in use. I purchased a 400K BTU Gas Heater so according to the specs it can heat my 910 gallon spa 30 degrees every 42 minutes at a 120GPM flow rate which my plumbing plan will accommodate. Theoretically, I could keep the spa at 40 degrees when not in use the heat to 104 in about 95 minutes or so. I haven’t purchased a cover yet but I plan to get a good one.

My utilities are on the "budget" plan where they equalize your year round usage so you don't get any surprise months. I was getting high electric bills so we went on this years ago (before the pool). Both my electric and gas doubled with the pool.

 

[Cena_sea]

I believe the moderator moved this thread to the "Construction" section once the conversation went into a variety of build related topics so you should be able to follow there. I am surprised to hear how high your operating costs are for your pool even when closed. Why is that? I have been focused on planning, building, and operation to date so I do not yet know much about closing the pool for the winter. I'm hoping my operating costs are not that high with VS pumps.

The gas bill more than doubled (probably tripled due to spa use in cooler months) but it was pretty low previous. Electricity I did not notice any jump. I did just check and yes, it's about the same pre pool as post pool. Some months were more usage, some less, but the differences were not that big and if I added it up, it's probably equal or slightly less (probably due to weather vs last year). Also because it's a smaller pool and the previous landscape lighting was primarily not LED vs all LED now.

I was just at a friend's who also has a more recent build and they went full solar (had solar pool heating but added panels for their house). They have a much larger pool and she told me now they have a zero electric bill. With such a large pool it might be something to look into.

 

[gingrbredman]

I have a pool, maybe the size of you proposed spa in comparison, but found my two bubblers, on their own lines, with their own valves, I can get the right height and balance between the two. Now mine are all on one little pump, but my point is only to make sure to have a separate valve for each line if you want to balance them. My OCD wouldn't let one bubbler be height than the others.

salt system

I am guessing if you are going Pentair, you will have two salt cells? The ic60 is "technically" rated for a 60k gallon pool, but it would have to run at 100% 24/7 to barely keep up. Maybe two ic60s as you want the salt system to be double your volume. Just something to keep in mind as you are figuring this all out.

I'm trying to do things the right way for the long term.

That is great! Then this is what you want to achieve that goal.

But the IntelliTouch is 20+ year old technology and I would not recommend anyone install it on a new pool now. Get the IntelliCenter i10D for a dual equipment pool.