Bromine salt for SWG - clarification and availability?

[dimetime]

Greetings.
I had been using the bleach method, works fine. I started with a saltron mini and pool salt, which worked better. I switched to the controlomatic smarterspa, and have to say it's way better for me. My water takes a few days to balance out and then stays pretty maintenance free for the most part, no algae at all, no excessive chloramine/smell, pretty low ppm all the time now and have not had to shock for the winter.

I've been struggling with some sensitivities to chlorine though, even at very low levels. I've been thinking about switching to a bromine system as the SWG says it will also work with bromine.

However, finding NaBr salt is proving not only confusing but difficult. First, there seem to be numerous products out there labeled bromine. Some are a small packet some are a 2lb bottle, similar to MPS or dichlor you would normally use. I think these are salts? But then you have the tablets, which may or may not be salt, exactly, after they break down?

As for availability, I've seen that dead sea salts are nabr, but they have a lot of other minerals as well. Not wanting to get into more complications because of extra mineral content, but haven't found any info yet on if there are negative effects on spa equipment or water management with dead sea salts. I can find no other "nabr pool salt".

So, does anyone have a source for NaBR salt, in bulk, like the morton pool salt I have been using?
Does anyone know about the products I can find, the 2lb bottles of crystals or the tablets, in terms of using them to get the salt content for the SWG?

Understanding how the bromine works or the conversion is actually pretty straight forward, much like the chlorine process. But the salt generator side seems pretty void of products.

Any help?
Thanks.

 

[Bperry]

NaBr won’t work with a salt chlorinator will it? The machine needs the CL part of NaCL.
How do you know the sensitivity is caused by CL?

 

[mguzzy]

Hmmm I doubt it. The cells are designed to work their electrolysis magic on Cl- and not so much on Br-. As I understand it they happen at different voltages on the anode. You can't just say oh they are in the same group so it must work. So...

But what is it about chlorine that you are sensitive too? Most of the time the sensitivity is related to the CC's in the water. And an SWG has the added benie that it breaks down the CC's. My daughter has very sensitive skin and a SWG was her saving grace that let her get in the pool. It wasn't until I started haning out here that I understood why. So I would be more tempted to suggest you use regular salt with your upcoming SWG and keep a closer eye on the CC's. If you could post some of your chem numbers that would be helpful too.

Some toilet time reading for you:

Electrolytic Cells

Will I get bromine by electrolysis of the brine from the Dead Sea?

I know that electrolysis of a saturated solution of sodium chloride with an inert anode (eg., graphite) is a handy way to obtain pure chlorine. I have a sample of saturated salt solution from the D...

chemistry.stackexchange.com

 

[dimetime]

From the manual.

BROMINE SALT - SODIUM BROMIDE (NaBr): Raise Salt Level to 3,000 PPM (Parts Per Million). There
are several manufacturers of Sodium Bromide Salt to choose from. Please make sure the Sodium
Bromide you purchase is 99% pure or better. Ask your local pool and spa dealer for assistance.

Salt Type Pounds kg Cups Salt Level
99% Pure Sodium Chloride (NaCl) 1.5 0.681 2.5 1500-2000 PPM
99% Pure Sodium Bromide (NaBr) Fine Grain Salt 2.5 1.135 4 2500-3000 PPM

As for sensitivity, if the ppm is < .5 (basically near zero with two people after 15 minutes) then I get no irritation. Irritation is limited to a few spots on my legs. I let chloramines get high and drove down to 0, and that does not seem to affect. I used borax and not, no affect. CYA at 0 or 40ish, no affect. Does not matter if tub is using liquid bleach or chlorine from SWG, if it's got chlorine around 1ppm, I get the skin irritation. PH is pretty solid for months after getting it balanced with MA.

It might not be the chlorine, but I've run out of ways I can test to see what it is lol.

 

[mguzzy]

After reading your post, I just realized this is a spa! So, CYA helps make the CL less harsh. It is recommended to use a little CYA in an indoor pool even though there is no UV to degrade the Cl, but to take advantage of its effect on Cl harshness. Try that. Search around and you'll find references about it.

As to your original question, I don't recall seeing a source for Bromide salts.. I even checked Duda Diesel, they usually have all that stuff.

 

[Bperry]

From the manual.




As for sensitivity, if the ppm is < .5 (basically near zero with two people after 15 minutes) then I get no irritation. Irritation is limited to a few spots on my legs. I let chloramines get high and drove down to 0, and that does not seem to affect. I used borax and not, no affect. CYA at 0 or 40ish, no affect. Does not matter if tub is using liquid bleach or chlorine from SWG, if it's got chlorine around 1ppm, I get the skin irritation. PH is pretty solid for months after getting it balanced with MA.

It might not be the chlorine, but I've run out of ways I can test to see what it is lol.

Do you have test logs you can share on your profile?

 

[dimetime]

Lol, I guess I assumed in the spa/tub sub-forum it would be assumed.
Yeah I can feel a dryness without the CYA but don't get the irritation if the CL is almost 0. I usually have 30-40 CYA in it, just for the cover and the swim suits to not deteriorate. It does not see much sunlight so it doesn't burn off much at all.

Since I have been using the controlomatic, the CC have been very minimal. I test it a lot for chlorine and chlormines and to be honest rarely even add MPS any more. I clean the filters pretty regularly and when I'm done soaking I simply hit the cycle button on the SWG. Once in awhile I might add a little spa56 just to bump the chlorine after a little longer use or to bump the CYA.

As for the bromide salts, that's what I've found, that I can't really find any. I'm not interested in not using an SWG, so tablets aren't what I'm thinking. I just want to enjoy the tub again without the skin irritation. I've cleaned it with ahhsome every water change, and don't get any gunk really. Water looks great, filters are usually pretty clean. pH is pretty solid 7.6, after the MA gets the alkalinity down to approximately 50~ish. Really it's become super easy to maintain the thing.

It's worth mentioning that nobody else but me gets the irritation. That's perhaps a dozen people who have been in it a decent amount over the winter.

 

[dimetime]

I used to log it, how much of everything was added, every time. But have not for some time. I can tell you that I have a pH meter I use, calibrated correctly, and that the pH is 7.5-7.6 for months on end, unless I top off, and then I use muriatic to bring it down to 7.5 while jets are all running. It's a couple day process but becomes very stable.
I can tell you that I add a product chemgeek mentioned that does not affect the pH like the borax tends to, but I cannot remember off hand what the name is. I have used borax (20 mule team) as well it just takes longer. About 50ppm of that really does help maintain the pH.
I can tell you that I test the chlorine almost every day, as well as the cc. Since using the control0matic it is at about 2ppm right after an SWG run cycle. I don't get in if it's at that point. It's got to be <1ppm for me to get in any more. My CC are only slightly elevated within a few hours of using the tub, and are generally .5 to 1ppm, but between the ozone running for a couple hours a day and the SWG, doing it's thing, it is back to non-existent. I suppose that's if the chemicals are not bad. I buy the stuff in larger quantities now because I test all the time so I assume by the expiration dates they are all good.

As for logging the testing of irritation, pretty much every permutation of the following:
chlorine 0, .5, 1, >1
CYA 0, 20, 30, 40
Borax 0, 25~, 50
Salt 0, 1000 (too low), 1500 (almost perfect), 2000 (seems excessive)
CC 0, .5, 1, 2, >2

The one and only thing that affects the irritation seems to be the chlorine ppm level. As I said, no matter the other values, at around 1ppm I get the irritation. The method of testing is last 3 fills, start with just bleach, then move to CYA/Borax/CC, finally adding salt in place of just bleach. It's been repeatable, in that at every stage, only the free chlorine seems to matter.

 

[Bperry]

I kinda meant what the current test results are and what method are you using to get the results. You don’t have any of that info on your profile.

I’ve read MPS interferes with the FAS-DPD chlorine test to make it appear artificially high? Maybe someone else can chime in on that. Everything I’ve read seems to indicate actual chlorine sensitivity at swimming pool levels is very rare and the real cause is CC level.

 

[mguzzy]

Lol, I guess I assumed in the spa/tub sub-forum it would be assumed.

I lost track of what forum I was in.. I thought this was in the SWG forum... Duh!

I will hang out in your thread and learn something about Spas! I always assumed you get the bromine in your water by just dumping in the required Sodium Bromide product you can get from a typical pool store/Walmart/Amazon. No? Yes?

Perhaps I can make amends for my clumsiness with a witty story:
The last time I seriously played with a spa I was in college and a friend got a big arse wine barrel in some deal he swung.. I could do PVC without gluing my fingers together so I was included in the project.. We had NO idea what sanitation was.. We had no idea what we were doing.. we were making it up as we went. He wanted it to be all wood, so he built redwood benches inside the cask and we used old 70's era (it was the 70's after all) pool equipment to circulate the water... It was always green, there were always interesting flora or fauna growing in it. It was life in the slow lane.

 

[Newdude]

He wanted it to be all wood, so he built redwood benches inside the cask and we used old 70's era (it was the 70's after all) pool equipment to circulate the water..

Actual pic of Guzzy supplying the bubbles.

 

[mguzzy]

Actual pic of Guzzy supplying the bubbles.

Yah know.. I donated my chest hairs for use in that scene...

 

[dimetime]

I kinda meant what the current test results are and what method are you using to get the results. You don’t have any of that info on your profile.

I’ve read MPS interferes with the FAS-DPD chlorine test to make it appear artificially high? Maybe someone else can chime in on that. Everything I’ve read seems to indicate actual chlorine sensitivity at swimming pool levels is very rare and the real cause is CC level.

Using the TFT test kit, testing for free chlorine and combined. FAS-DPD. FC has been about .5 to 1 typically or as I said about 2ppm if the SWG has just finished running. CC has been mostly 0 in the last couple months when I test (again, unless I test maybe an hour after I was in the tub, then it would be around 1ppm CC). The SWG combined with the couple hours ozone really do seem to have eliminated the CC being present.

MPS from what I understand messes with combined results, takes a few days to get back to normal, but as I said I rarely use MPS.
I agree about swimming pool levels, I don't have that issue in them.

I do know that I can empty the tub, (which is only a little over a year old), fill and rinse, fill and run ahhsome purge, fill and rinse, then fill and add chlorine only to .5 ppm, and it is great (applies to either a bleach source or a granular dichlor source). I can then get in at 1 or > ppm and it will cause the reaction. Could be the heat possibly.
I was hoping to try bromine and see if it is different on the skin.

 

[dimetime]

I lost track of what forum I was in.. I thought this was in the SWG forum... Duh!

I will hang out in your thread and learn something about Spas! I always assumed you get the bromine in your water by just dumping in the required Sodium Bromide product you can get from a typical pool store/Walmart/Amazon. No? Yes?

I thought so as well. Since the SWG says it can use bromine, I thought it would be pretty much like nacl salt.

Apparently Canada has banned bromine stuff for hot tubs, so maybe there's something brewing in the gov we don't know about yet