break in underground pool light wire

[texasmax]

We've got two incandescent pool lights (in gunite); we had a gas leak earlier in the year and half the yard had to be dug up to replace pipe. I didn't realize until months later that a light line must have been hit- switching it on trips it's breaker immediately (we don't use the lights that often). There's other minor equipment (Stenner pump) on the same breaker that works fine when the breaker is reset so fairly certain a line was cut/shorted/something. The lights are new full assemblies as of three years ago.

For the sake of asking- is there any way to remedy this (and still use the existing pool light) without digging up the yard? Because of the depth not sure how close we can locate the break with measuring equipment.

Thanks!

 

[Texas Splash]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not so sure it was from the digging. I would hope the electrical line for the lights and stenner were pulled through conduit, so someone should've seen that. Also, it would seem odd that the lights would trip the circuit, but the stenner would not and operate fine. Last, if the circuit was cut, there simply would be no power. I can see it tripping if the line was cut and exposed to moisture, but again why would the stenner work? If it were me, even though the lights are only 3 years old, I would start with those simply because they should be easier to get to and this time of year ….. you're in the water. Pull them out to ensure they are still watertight and sealed good within the fixture itself. Of course the niche should be flooded with water, but check those areas as best as you can for any suspect breaks in the wire.

Those are my "backyard DIY" comments. We have several electrical gurus who might catch the title of your thread and reply as well. Let us know what you find.

 

[ajw22]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not so sure it was from the digging. I would hope the electrical line for the lights and stenner were pulled through conduit, so someone should've seen that. Also, it would seem odd that the lights would trip the circuit, but the stenner would not and operate fine. Last, if the circuit was cut, there simply would be no power. I can see it tripping if the line was cut and exposed to moisture, but again why would the stenner work?

Stenner pump is probably by equipment pad and light wire has the run to the pool. Probably only place the two wires come together is in the breaker panel. So conduit with light wire could have been cut in digging.

I am assuming light switch or relay is after breaker. Breaker is probably GFCI. So Stenner pump alone works fine. Turn on light and you energize the cut line in ground which is either shorted to trip breaker or trips due to GFCI.

I would go into pool light switch, disconnect from light wire, and remove bulb and then test and see if wire is shorted or open. You can figure out status of wire using multimeter and checking continuity from both ends.

 

[texasmax]

Thanks! AJW got it exactly with the wiring configuration. And light switch is after the GFCI breaker.

I've never messed with bulb install- should there be a reasonable amount of slack behind the fixture (2-3 feet so I can get it above water to remove the bulb)?

 

[ajw22]

I've never messed with bulb install- should there be a reasonable amount of slack behind the fixture (2-3 feet so I can get it above water to remove the bulb)?

Should be one screw that holds light ring into niche. When you remove the screw the light should have enough slack wire to put on deck.

Beware that screw can be rusted and hard to remove or replace. There is this wedge to repair a screw problem - Swimming Pool Light Wedge Repair Tool Replaces Broken Screw, Niche Tab Part 132 | eBay

 

[texasmax]

Got back in the pool tonight; felt voltage after touching the ring when coming at it with the screwdriver. I can feel stray voltage around both while being 3-4 inches away. The switch that controls the lights is off (otherwise the breaker would trip). Turned the breaker off manually by hand (after a good dry-off!) and still felt the voltage. Calling the local pool company (that I trust) in the morning because I have neither the time nor the desire to take this one on!

 

[Dirk]

As the pool is unsafe now, I think it's a great idea to turn this over to a qualified pool electrician. Let's hope that's what you'll get from the "local pool company." My local pool company's "electrician" was not qualified at all, as I later learned. Don't mean to discourage you, just sharing that "pro" does not always equal "expert" and if it were me I'd want to hear about his qualifications. I acknowledge that I am anti-pool-guy and projecting, but this isn't "Oh, sorry, I dumped in too much chlorine this week." It's "Oh, sorry I electrocuted you!" Better to be a bit paranoid in this case.

If it comes down to digging up the conduit to find the break, I'd give this a try (unless they have gizmos that can find a break, or a better idea).

There should be a junction box somewhere near the light. In the landscaping beyond the deck, usually. That box is where the light's wires are connected to the wires that run to the breaker box. I'd disconnect the wires, and tie a line to the set that runs to the breaker. Then I'd disconnect the wires at the breaker (this is with the entire panel shut off, of course), and start pulling. If you're lucky, the wires will come all the way out, dragging the line with them. Examine the wires for a slice, or one might be sheared off. Align the wires to where they were connected and lay them back across the yard where you think the conduit is underground. Wherever that cut is, that's where you dig. If you're lucky, no need to dig up the whole conduit. Patch what was broken, using a little creativity and forethought to maintain the line through the conduit (by cutting it, slipping it through the patchwork pieces and tying it back together before you glue in the patches), then pull a new set of wires through the conduit using the line.

A lot can go wrong with that plan, but it's just as likely to work...

If you dig up the conduit, look for the bond wire. It may or may not be in the same trench. If you find it, be sure it has not been compromised. I'm still learning about bonding, but from what I understand, even if your light wires were cut and causing stray voltage, you should not have felt that in the pool, touching anything. Which I think means either your bonding was not done correctly to begin with, or the bond wire was severed along with the light's wiring. Something to ask of your electrician. If he doesn't know what you're asking about, then you definitely have the wrong electrician!

 

[texasmax]

Thanks! I'll be by their side every step of the way.

 

[Texas Splash]

"+ is positive , - is negative"!

That's my Toy Story reference. Curious to hear what the electrician finds.

 

[texasmax]

So I ended up calling American Home Shield to see if I could get it done thru them. They cover pool electrical, but not pool lights. Pool company came by (I actually knew the tech as he'd been by in the past to replace a motor). It definitely needed a new breaker. We walked around, found the junction boxes, bonded over bonding, and then he left to check what could be covered. AHS called back and wanted to send an electrician out. They came out, I wan't there in person but spoke to him on the phone when he got there and tried my best to explain that I didn't need light repair, I needed wiring repair (that happened to feed the lights). He ended up just replacing the breaker, disconnected the light line at the breaker box, and headed out. i could fight it out with AHS to get more work out of them but I'm just going to wait until it cools off a bit then do some pulling

 

[Dirk]

I'm going to re-recommend (then shut up about it) that you find a qualified pool wiring expert to do this work. I very much doubt you'll get that from AHS. I still think there is something wrong with your bonding (based on what you described), and you shouldn't trust just anyone to check on that. I deal with home warranty contractors all the time. AHS and the like draw from a pool of contractors that are willing to work for next to nothing. They generally don't care much about what they are doing, and do the bare minimum to satisfy the warranty company, not the customer. (Which fits with what you described of the guy that just slapped in a new breaker and cut the connecting wires out.) Sorry, more anti-contractor rhetoric, but that has been my experience with dozens of different home warranty calls (I'm a property manager, among other things). I can appreciate that you're seeking an economical solution, but bonding is not something to skimp on... Fixing the break and pulling wires is one thing. You can save some money doing that part yourself, but unless you know how to test the bonding, you should find someone that knows how...

 

[texasmax]

Dirk- slept on it and came to the same conclusion. I can confidently do most things myself but dealing with electrified pool water, and being able to properly test it, is out of my wheelhouse. Thanks!