blind faith and this forum?

I used pucks in a floater with no problem from about 1970 to 2003. No algae, load the pucks once a week, check the pH now and then and that's it. FC between 1 and 3. Bliss. Detail was we dumped the pool every winter and started fresh every Spring. It was a 1946 painted steel pool made from WWII LST's. We had to do the rust spots anyway and a dedicated well filled 40k gal in 18 hours. Then I sold the land it was on (and the well with it) and built a new gunite pool which had to be kept full and I had to learn about calcium hardness and alkalinity. I miss steel, except for the rust spots. I soon found my old technique led to building CYA and stubborn algae. This place was my salvation. I don't use it because I bought the hype, I use it because it works and pucks didn't.

Prior to 1970 and stabilization, it was a dose of HTH Cal-hypo every night. $30 or so bought a 100 lbs and it came in a really neat 55 gal type drum lined with porcelain and lasted a whole season. Bleached the heck out of the cotton suits of the time. And the drums came in handy for 15 years or so until they switched to some heavy duty cardboard stuff.
 
I found an old thread, "Trichlor tablets can work" that sums up some of what has been said in this thread. Some pools do fine with Trichlor-only; some do OK for a while and then turn; others have problems sooner.

The process of getting algae is a statistical one based on a combination of different factors influencing two competing reaction rates -- the rate of growth of algae vs. the rate of killing of algae. The concept of the Chlorine / CYA chart first proposed by Ben Powell at the PoolForum (and PoolSolutions) is a minimum FC level relative to the CYA level that will kill algae faster than it can grow even under "ideal" algae growth conditions. The concept was further extended and modified to conform with known science of the FC/CYA relationship to actual active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) levels.

Even with this chart, it is not guaranteed to be absolutely perfect, though it does appear to reduce the odds of getting algae to well below the 1 in 1000 mark (probably closer to 1 in 5,000 or better) based on what we've seen reported on multiple pool forums. When not following this chart and not doing anything extra to prevent algae (algicides/algistats, phosphate removers, regular shocking), the odds for algae get much, much higher, though are very dependent on the algae growth factors of nutrients (especially phosphates and nitrates), sunlight and temperature and how low the FC/CYA level becomes.
 
I am a relatively new subscriber on the forum and will soon be the owner of a home with an inground pool...thats right I don't even own a home with a pool yet (well technically I "own" it but haven't moved in yet).

My biggest concern when I went to see the home was it was vacant as the previous owner had died and was elderly, I was expecting the worst. To my relief the pool was in excellent shape and clean and clear, obviously it was maintained by a pool company professional. After going through the plumbing and inspecting the vinyl liner and making sure the pump and natural gas heater worked I took a water sample and went online looking for info.

I repair and maintain pure water generators and am a licensed water sanitation equipment operator so I know a thing or two about water, just not very much about pool applications other than theory. In the industry the rule of thumb is very simple, the cheaper it is to operate and the more stable the system is the better it is for everyone concerned. I have moved my share of large industrial chlorine drums to a potable water chlorine injection system that supplied a small hydro community of 300 people, we got our water directly from the river...from the head of the dam actually. As you can imagine I took the water quality supplied to my family and the community seriously. I took water testing to the N'th level and was going above the call of duty in making sure we all got to drink good quality water, you only have to see the results of poor maintenance and testing in remote communites and the sickness it causes to know what happens when someone isn't doing their job.

Knowing this I looked at the pool supply community and seen that most of their products are geared towards people with no clue what they are doing and spend even less time testing their water, most pool owners have little to no training so you have to allow standards that prevent these people from making people sick...even if that means jacked up CYA levels and tons of chlorine in the pool to compensate. That may be good enough for the average person but I think it is safe to say the average person on this forum is far from the average pool owner...they have taken it upon themselves to be involved in their family's health and are concerned with it. Looking to save some pennies while doing it is a nice byproduct of becoming educated.

The BBB method is nothing new, industrial setups use an identical system I just never heard it referred to by that acronym. The sanitation professional isn't buying little (all in one) pucks and hoping for the best, he is doing testing for all the variables and adjusting accordingly with specific chemicals. It just so happens those chemicals are the same as what you can buy at the local grocery store in smaller sizes, actually I think consumer products are purer than the industrial strength barrels as waste byproduct residues at the bottom of the jug would be objectionable to the average consumer.

The science as described here is sound and safe, your specific water conditions may vary so I suggest you take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt until you become educated enough to know how they apply to your situation. Finding a quality pool professional with experience and certification would be an invaluable resource while you learn what you are doing, it would be safe to say weaning yourself from the industry packaged environment to the BBB method should be done with caution and a guided hand. Becoming proficient with the water testing part of the maintenance is the first thing you should become expert at, having your water tested prior to beginning this process would be the first step to maintaining a log book of adjustments and test results.

I am going to say that again, maintaining a log book of your water quality testing and chemical additions is an essential part of becoming responsible for your pool. No doubt you can get so good at it that it will become mostly unnecessary but from a legal standpoint it might be the only thing you have on your side if some ones child gets sick in your pool and decides to hire a lawyer. Every water sanitation professional takes the maintenance of logbooks as an essential part of their job, being able to track water conditions is the first step in taking control of it. I remember when I first started taking control of the waste water reactor that dumped to the river system and some guys in the community where in the final process of finishing their "homebrew" beer supply for the winter and were dumping waste into the system which shut down all my biologicals...killed them is a more accurate word actually. If I didn't have that log book that had been maintained for the last 40 years I may not have been able to bring the reactor back into operation as quickly as I did, it happened before in the past and I only had to look up what was done by other operators to learn from their mistakes getting it operational. I think this one aspect is why most people decide to hire an outside professional to maintain their pools even if these mostly uncertified "pool professionals" only have on the job training and don't have a vested interest in your familes health other than holding on to their summer job.

I have yet to read anything on this forum that is dangerous or contrary to accepted sanitation standards, as a matter of fact I have read with delight that the opposite is true...most of these guys are going above the N'th level in their pool maintenance and are concerned with even small changes to their pool waters condition and how to correct it.

To me that means I have come to the right place and am in good company. Just remember ultimately you are responsible for your own sanitation and if you don't feel comfortable with some aspect of it seek professional help, sometimes it is a small adjustment required or just some advice that being on-site is required. It is always better to be safe than sorry and standing in front of a judge saying "the internet told me to do it" is not a defense while next door little johnny's parents sit teary eyed while he is in the hospital with chemical burns.

There is a good chance this type of maintenance is not for you, not everyone is part chemist and part plumber or has an interest in educating himself to be proficient. I do think being able to do your own testing as a basic part of pool ownership should be mandatory and a $180 kit is all you need to get yourself involved so you know what the pool guy is doing and what challenges he faces, you might even find he will give you extra value because your involvement makes his job easier.

I have never seen a situation where being educated about your environment is a bad thing, except when you have no control over it...luckily you have a choice. :wink:
 
This is my second season using the BBB method.
With my husband being laid off since Jan 4th, had it not been for this site I would have had 2 choices this year...


1. Drain the pool and watch my 3 y/o liner ruin, or
2. let the water sit there and become a mosquito infested swamp :grrrr:

So far this year all I have added is bleach. Because of TFP I am able to keep a clean, sanitized pool without killing my budget. And since there won't be any vacation this year :( we can still have fun in our own backyard!!
 
This is by far the best resource for pool information anywhere as far as I am concerned.

I grew up with a pool my entire life. I thought I knew about pools, how they worked, and how they were maintained. The fact is, I knew nothing.

I come to this website every single day now. I skim through new and old posts looking for info that can be useful to me, or even just info that is interesting to me.

The people on this website are unbelievably helpful. Not just in reference to BBB. But why a spa's returns might be weak, or why your automatic pool cleaner is doing laps around your main drain. :grrrr:

All that being said, I don't use bleach! I use those evil stabilized pucks. :evil:
I just don't have the time, patience, or spare clothing to dump jugs of bleach into my pool every day.

That said though, I have a great test kit (highly stressed here), I make sure my all my levels including CYA are where they are supposed to be, and my pool looks and feels absolutely amazing. I attribute this to the information I received on this forum regardless of the method in which I deliver the chemicals to the pool ;)

Anyway, good luck!
 
I worry about "blind faith" when I read about products that contain

"a natural enzyme chemical by XXX that biodegrades organic contaminants. XXX also helps in reducing maintenance, as well as in preventing scum lines, eliminating odors, and clearing pool water.

and how about what they call Technical specs---

Technical Specs:
Eliminates Skin & Eye Irritation
Eliminates Strong Chemical Odors
Reduces Pool Maintenance
Makes Water Feel Soft & Silky


From a product mentioned by a new poster who has a problem with his pool. This is only one of the things he puts in his pool regularly.

Personally I'd be much more comfortable adding the things that we use in pools (acid, bleach, baking soda, borax, concentrated chlorine, cya) than this bottle of whatever it actually is, priced at $24/2 L.
 
I have had 2 pools and used the BBB method on the first and now use SWG and the BBB. Very satisfied and very easy. The pool store guys don't like me much, I think I only go for CYA every once in a while. This site is great, the amount of information and people willing to help, simply rocks!!

Chris
 
My husband, who was in charge of our first pool years ago, said, "all I did was throw in some pucks every week, and we never had a problem--I barely tested the water, and I don't even think I vacuumed more than once a week"....I have been in charge of our newer 3-year old pool, and it has been nothing but problems....of course, it looked like "I" was the problem....right?

Well, let me say this....I think the pool chemical companies are behind the design of these fancy pool ladders----you know, the ones you can't clean behind--like those big fancy step ladders----take them out at the end of the season and behold your algae problem! You will never be able to keep on top of your algae problem with those step ladders---you simply can't brush the underside of the steps, and there is no circulation, to say the least....so, I gave my $800 step system away to someone with a warning that they will have algae problems...they insisted on taking it anyway because it had a locking gate, and they were concerned about their 2 year old's safety. Since, I've gotten myself a simple ladder and things are good on that end.

But I will say, these past 3 years being totally at the mercy of the pool store people has been frustrating, leading me to depressing results and the desire to close the pool and never open it again. All they kept saying was chlorine block, chlorine block (yes, I was using trichlor pucks) My liner gave way right before we opened the pool (another story), and as upset as I was, I was relieved to know that we would be filling the whole pool with fresh water---I put so much algaecide and this and that in it in previous seasons, it made me sick to think my kids were going to swim in it....this giving way of my liner was a blessing in disguise!

When I opened my pool with this fresh water, not having yet discovered this wonderful forum, I took a sample to the pool store...he sold me the pucks, and told me that since they were stabilized, I didn't need to put stabilizer in my pool. Well, I started to get algae and totally freaked out...here we go again...more algaecide....I cried. I discovered this forum, and I haven't been back to the pool stores...I have learned so much--I know my CYA, and what level my FC has to be at, and I add bleach accordingly. I test everyday, and it is rewarding. I would never go to the pool store again to test my water, only because they are using the same test kit as me, and I can count drops just as well! I did bring my water in to double check my CYA--she said it was 30, and I said that I had gotten 60--she said "no way"--but I watched her--she barely mixed up the sample with the reagent--if I had listened to her, I might have added more CYA, and that would have brought me too high...of course, then, I'd have to use more chlorine--which is probably their goal, anyway. If I choose to not be so skeptical, I do realize that the CYA test is very objective, but there is a huge visual difference between the 30 and 60 level...

So the question is, should we have blind faith in this forum's methodolgy? Well, now I feel a bit educated on pool maintenance, not blind, as I was with the pool stores....

Again, I can't thank the kind people on this forum enough--you have been so helpful...I had other problems with the pool a few weeks ago, and I couldn't believe, as I would tell my friends, that there were people who I didn't even know, ready at their computers to help me get through my problems. You ROCK!

Happy Swimming!
Tammi
 
chem geek said:
Terry said:
Everyday more of us know. Eventually chem/ pool companies will have to change or they will loose their market share.
There are currently over 14,000 members at TFP and at one time were more than 20,000 members at The PoolForum. Even with lurkers who don't register, it is doubtful that there are over 100,000 people who follow the chlorine/CYA relationship and use variants of the techniques described here. There are around 8 million pools in the U.S. so until we get closer to half a million to a million people, it simply won't result in change based on economics alone. Of course, if a few people with the power to initiate change at some leading companies wake up in the morning saying "how can I help people today" instead of "how can I maximize my personal income and corporate profits (with the consequences of hurting others through deceit)", then things can change much more quickly.

Keep in mind that this really isn't the fault of most pool stores since they mostly just recite what is told to them by the people who sell them products and the standards are mostly developed by those who work in the industry with strong economic incentives. Also, many pool stores have temporary seasonal employees so the training isn't very high (and wages can be low). Also keep in mind that I think the majority of people with residential pools use a pool service and the challenges of once-a-week visits usually force one to use Trichlor pucks/tabs in an inline chlorinator or floating feeder. Not everyone wants to take control of their own pool, though many do.

There is also a huge amount of institutional inertia. The 10x breakpoint chlorination rule is wrong (it applies correctly to ammonia, but not to CC which is how the industry uses it) and has been repeated by so many for so long with no one questioning it until very recently and even then not completely understood even though it's very straightforward chemistry. The longer something has been said, the harder it is to change even if it's not true. In this case, I believe it was just an innocent mistake made decades ago and not an intentional lie, but the result is the same.
Great post, thanks.
 

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Thanks. I should correct what I wrote that "the majority of people with residential pools use a pool service" since there are many Intex and similar temporary or seasonal pools so what I wrote couldn't be true. I was thinking more about the larger pools, especially in-ground. Even so, many people prefer convenience and simply don't want to add chlorine frequently to the pool. That's no excuse for not having full disclosure, however.
 
Before this forum I had no idea you could buy BBB at Walmart. My first trip to the pool store after my pool was built, I was "pool stored" into buying some baking soda. I looked at the active ingredient and said, "that's the last time I do that. Thanks to this forum, I finally have chlorine that is generated from my SWCG and not from shocking it every week. I will never buy algecide or clarifier again, never bring a sample of water to the pool store and never worry about phosphates. I'll go there for 12.5% chlorine (once in a great while) and maybe stabilizer (the Walmart near me doesn't sell it; maybe I'll buy the 10-lb pack Ace Hardware sells online - $5/lb, instead of $6.25/lb). If not for this website I would have spend a fortune at the pool store this summer instead of spending it on things like borates for my pool. Though supporting my local economy is something I like. And really my pb means well, but he just doesn't know enough. He installed an intellichlor ic20 for a 20,000 gal pool. I'm sure that's ignorance. When I told him it didn't work, he didn't know it was too small and didn't know about field calibrating it either. He still came out and replaced the cell. Bottom line is, I'd be lost without the knowledge gained on this website. I have a trouble free pool thanks to everyone here. My brother is getting a pool with a SWCG and I hope to convert him to the BBB method. I know so much now. I don't want my brother to get pool stored.
 
You know, we are working on science here. Testing and measuring.

Not faith-based following of "experts" at the local store who get so much of their education from reading labels and advertisements.
 
My wife works with someone who was commenting a while back that they were spending $$$ on all the stuff their pool store told them they needed & they still couldn't get the pool cleared up (I know: common story). I sent links to this site, the Pool School, TFTestKits, and so on a few weeks ago. I just heard today that they bought the TF100 test kit & have been using bleach and generally following the advice found here, with the result that their pool is clear and back to normal now.

I'm glad to have found this site right after our pool was installed.

In my opinion, blind faith would be assuming that someone else (pool store employees, for example) knows what they are talking about when they tell you what to add, instead of educating yourself about what the various chemicals do and knowing why & when to add them.
 
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