Backwash procedure for pool with 2 filters

Flow meter is currently measuring about 130 gpm.
130 GPM? I thought you had said earlier it was 120 GPM. I have been assuming that all along.

If I underestand the graph correctly, that would mean that the pump suction and pressure gauges would have to be way off.... closer to 140 ft of head... if the pump is operating on "Plumbing Curve OP C". Is that right?
Yes, which seems unlikely to me.

Seems like "Plumbing Curve OP B" would be the most likely condition (as previously surmised).
Yes, that is my top contender at this point.

Here is a chart update with the 130 GPM assumption.

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130 GPM? I thought you had said earlier it was 120 GPM. I have been assuming that all along.
Well..... it's kind of hard to read the way it is positioned in the pipe, but last I checked it looked closer to 130 gpm. One thing I'm going to ask is that we install a digital flow meter (which is an add-on to the current flow meter (Model FV-D) from the same company). It will be much easier to get an accurate reading with that installed. Any reason not to do that?

 
Wouldn't a PC that is approved by the State have someone on staff or someone they bring in or consult with, i.e., an engineer, who understands this stuff?
Not the ones that many members on the forum and I have experienced. Most PCs only use engineers, and mostly external engineering firms, to get plan approval for permitting but that is about it. For troubleshooting, they just rely on their technicians experience and what they have seen before which sometimes works.

Once the wet end is removed from the motor, it should be pretty clear where the problem lies so they probably really don't need to do much with regards to the pump's head/power curves. That is just more of a confirmation point or to get hints before they come out.

Well..... it's kind of hard to read the way it is positioned in the pipe, but last I checked it looked closer to 130 gpm. One thing I'm going to ask is that we install a digital flow meter (which is an add-on to the current flow meter (Model FV-D) from the same company). It will be much easier to get an accurate reading with that installed. Any reason not to do that?
Sure, anything to make it easier to read. But I would wait until we determine the actual problem. If the FlowVis you currently have is the problem, then I might go with another manufacture.
 
In Illinois, there's no mandatory state license for pool service technicians.

A Certified Pool Operator (CPO) is required for those operating pools serving the public.

CPO certification is a voluntary program offered by the Illinois Department of Public Health.

To get certified, individuals complete a training course, including basic concepts and techniques for pool operation and maintenance, and pass an exam.

Pool Certs offers both online courses and review classes with certified CPO instructors for certification and recertification.

Pool & Hot Tub Alliance (PHTA) also offers certifications for pool service technicians, including Certified Service Technician (CST) certification, which involves completing a course and exam.
 
Wouldn't a PC that is approved by the State have someone on staff or someone they bring in or consult with, i.e., an engineer, who understands this stuff?
There really are no "Approval" processes.

The unfortunate truth is that the vast majority of Pool People do not understand things like Hydraulics or Chemistry from a Scientific First Principles level.

Most people just go by general Rule-of-Thumb and experience.

The only approval is a CPO certification for operators of public pools, but most of the training is basic general knowledge and nothing really advanced.

Chemistry training is maybe a class here and there by the PHTA or maybe a chemical manufacturer who has an incentive to push a maintenance schedule that relies on tons of expensive chemicals like algaecides, phosphate removers, clarifiers, enzymes, floc etc.

Chemistry classes focus on pushing the standard boilerplate ranges of 1 to 4 FC, 7.6 pH, 80 to 120 ppm TA etc.

Equipment training is maybe a class here and there given by the manufacturers like Hayward, Pentair and Jandy.

No one is giving or getting training on actual chemistry, hydraulics, mechanical engineering, thermodynamics etc.

Below is a link to the PHTA publications that you can read to see what is, and what is not, taught.

 
There really are no "Approval" processes.
The state does maintain a list of "approved" providers. I'm not sure what the process for approval is, but not all pool comapnies are on the list. I had to review the list and select a provider that was on the "approved" list last year when we were looking for a company to install new equipment.
 
In Illinois, there's no mandatory state license for pool service technicians.

A Certified Pool Operator (CPO) is required for those operating pools serving the public.

CPO certification is a voluntary program offered by the Illinois Department of Public Health.

To get certified, individuals complete a training course, including basic concepts and techniques for pool operation and maintenance, and pass an exam.

Pool Certs offers both online courses and review classes with certified CPO instructors for certification and recertification.

Pool & Hot Tub Alliance (PHTA) also offers certifications for pool service technicians, including Certified Service Technician (CST) certification, which involves completing a course and exam.

The state does maintain a list of "approved" providers. I'm not sure what the process for approval is, but not all pool comapnies are on the list. I had to review the list and select a provider that was on the "approved" list last year when we were looking for a company to install new equipment.
Illinois requires a list of pre-certified pool contractors to work on public pools. From my time working in IL I recall it and know some pre-certified contractors in the central IL region. Frankly it’s another Illinois money game. Those on the list are no more qualified than any other joe blow off the street, they’ve just paid the Illinois tax to the overlords to be blessed to do business in the commie state. There may be some hogwash exam but I’ve forgotten at this point.

Edited to add….Illinois also requires changes made to an existing public pool to have engineered plans drawn up by a pre-certified licensed engineer, who then can give the plans to a pre-certified pool contractor to do the work. They all pay the kickback text to the state to be on the list….It’s reminiscent of a mafia racket. Welcome to Illinois….🤣
 
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At this point, we need some more data including:

1) Pump RPM.

2) Pump Power Draw with associated Vacuum and Discharge Pressures and Flow rate in GPM.

3) New Vacuum and Discharge Pressure Gauges with new readings.

4) Maybe a new Flow Meter added to see if it is in agreement.

5) Verify all pump parts are correct, in good condition and no parts are missing.
1) Will check
2) Is "power draw" something an electrician will need to confirm? I doubt I will be able to determine this. No one here seems to know anything about the electrrical power, although I was informed today that one of the residents here is an elecrician. Maybe he can help. The Vacuum and Discharge Pressures and Flow Rate are all known, correct? We just need to confirm that the vacuum and discharge gauge readings are accurate, right?
4) A B&W flow meter was added last year to see if it was showing a different flow rate. It was not. It was removed and that plug that sits in front of the Flow Vis flow meter was installed. There is not enough straight pipe to install another FlowVis flow meter before or after the existing one, so all we can do is replace the FlowVis (which will not be cheap). One pool guy thinks that plug in front of the FlowVis is an issue, but no one here thinks that's a concern. Since the pump is the prime suspect, we will consider replacing the flow meter after the pump is inspected thoroughly and ruled out as the source of the problem.
5) YES..... we still need to have the PC pull the pump apart and inspect everything. We had a lot of junk in the pool this year. I wouldn't be surprised if that impeller was clogged... or possibly the wrong part. The filter to the Intellichem Controller has had to be cleaned twice already and the pool has only been operating for a few weeks.
 
I'm not sure what the process for approval is, but not all pool companies are on the list.
Maybe there are some minor qualifications like a business license and maybe insurance, bond etc. but probably zero actual trade knowledge required.

Maybe a basic test about general basic business principles.

Probably, like the BBB; as long as you pay the fee, you are considered to be Gold Seal Approved.

If you can get a copy of the actual qualifications, then I would like to see it.
 
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Trade Businesses like HVAC, Plumbing and Electrical require a Trade Business License, but that only requires that a single employee have a Master Trade License.

Even if a license is required for some work, no one enforces this.

The city does not check and customers virtually never check or ask anyone about their qualifications like certifications, licenses etc.

Most people who show up do not have a license.
 
Is "power draw" something an electrician will need to confirm?
Ask the Power Company where the meter is.

Maybe ask the power company to come out and verify the meter is working correctly as it seems to be off.

When they come out, have the technician verify the pump power.

Does the Association get a power bill?

Does it show one meter reading or two meter readings?
The Vacuum and Discharge Pressures and Flow Rate are all known, correct?
Known, but unknown as to reliability.
We just need to confirm that the vacuum and discharge gauge readings are accurate, right?
Yes.
A B&W flow meter was added last year to see if it was showing a different flow rate. It was not.
Two are good confirmation, but still, something is off.
YES..... we still need to have the PC pull the pump apart and inspect everything. We had a lot of junk in the pool this year. I wouldn't be surprised if that impeller was clogged... or possibly the wrong part.
The old impeller was in horrible shape including worn out vanes.

A worn out impeller will cause lower flow than expected.
 
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Edited to add….Illinois also requires changes made to an existing public pool to have engineered plans drawn up by a pre-certified licensed engineer, who then can give the plans to a pre-certified pool contractor to do the work.
I can imagine major pool structural changes all the way down to changing light bulbs. However, I can't imagine every little change requires an engineer.
 
I can imagine major pool structural changes all the way down to changing light bulbs. However, I can't imagine every little change requires an engineer.

Proposal: Pool Equipment Room Lighting System Remediation​

Objective: To restore and ensure safe, compliant illumination within the pool equipment room by replacing the non-functional light source and securing necessary professional approvals.
Scope: This proposal addresses the replacement of the existing burnt-out lightbulb and mandates a multi-disciplinary review process to uphold safety, electrical code adherence, and structural integrity.
Procedure:
  1. Safety Protocol: Prior to any work, the electrical circuit for the equipment room lighting will be positively de-energized at the breaker panel, and verified with a non-contact voltage tester.
  2. Access & Removal: A stable, ANSI-approved ladder will be used to access the fixture. The existing, non-functional lightbulb will be carefully unscrewed and removed.
  3. Bulb Installation: A new, energy-efficient, LED lightbulb (e.g., A19, 60W equivalent, suitable for damp locations if applicable) will be securely installed.
  4. Preliminary Verification: Power will be briefly restored to confirm illumination, then immediately de-energized again.
Required Approvals & Inspections:
  • Licensed Electrician Review: A licensed electrician will inspect the fixture, wiring, and circuit to ensure compliance with current electrical codes (NEC, local amendments) and certify safe operation.
  • City Code Inspector Review: A city code inspector will verify that the lighting installation, once operational, meets all applicable local building and safety codes for commercial or public pool facilities.
  • Structural Engineer Review: A qualified structural engineer will assess the mounting and integrity of the light fixture, especially if it is suspended or integrated into the building structure, to ensure it poses no risk to personnel or equipment.
Timeline: Physical replacement: 15 minutes. Subsequent inspections and approvals: contingent on scheduling availability of required professionals.
This stringent process ensures not only functional lighting but also long-term safety and regulatory compliance.
 
I can imagine major pool structural changes all the way down to changing light bulbs. However, I can't imagine every little change requires an engineer.
Minor replacement doesn't not such as replacing a broken flow meter. New pump to replace a broken one....engineered plans, change a cal hypo feeder to liquid - engineered plans. It sounds ludicrous but it's reality. I have known folks in Illinois that have slid things in because their health inspector was asleep and didn't notice the change. If the inspector did notice the change, permit revoked until such time as approved plans and work done by an approved contractor could be delivered to the correct authorities.
 
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Proposal: Pool Equipment Room Lighting System Remediation
Addendum:

The Architectural Review Committee must approve of all lighting before during and after the bulb is installed to ensure that the lighting complies with Architectural Standards for things like color, brightness and general ambiance.

Furthermore: There must be a 30 day notice given and public hearings must be held to allow the public to weigh in on the lighting choices as well as the choice of vendor.

You must receive at least 3 bids from different contractors to review their offerings including price for materials and labor etc.

The light bulb must be sourced from a free range light bulb factory with certified worker happiness protocols.
 
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Safety Protocol: Prior to any work, the electrical circuit for the equipment room lighting will be positively de-energized at the breaker panel, and verified with a non-contact voltage tester. In compliance with the OSHA standard for The Control of Hazardous Energy (Lockout/Tagout), Title 29 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 1910.147, thereby preventing the release of hazardous energy while employees perform servicing and maintenance activities, safe procedures for deenergizing circuits and equipment shall be determined before circuits or equipment are deenergized. Stored electric energy which might endanger personnel shall be released. Capacitors shall be discharged and high capacitance elements shall be short-circuited and grounded, if the stored electric energy might endanger personnel. A lock and a tag shall be placed on each disconnecting means used to deenergize circuits and equipment on which work is to be performed, except as provided in OSHA Standard 1910.333 paragraphs (b)(2)(iii)(C) and (b)(2)(iii)(E). The lock shall be attached so as to prevent persons from operating the disconnecting means unless they resort to undue force or the use of tools. Each tag shall contain a statement prohibiting unauthorized operation of the disconnecting means and removal of the tag. If a lock cannot be applied, or if the authorized individual can demonstrate that tagging procedures will provide a level of safety equivalent to that obtained by the use of a lock, a tag may be used without a lock. A tag used without a lock, as permitted earlier in this section, shall be supplemented by at least one additional safety measure that provides a level of safety equivalent to that obtained by the use of a lock. Examples of additional safety measures include the removal of an isolating circuit element, blocking of a controlling switch, or opening of an extra disconnecting device.
Fixed it for you…🤣
 
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Minor replacement doesn't not such as replacing a broken flow meter. New pump to replace a broken one....engineered plans, change a cal hypo feeder to liquid - engineered plans. It sounds ludicrous but it's reality. I have known folks in Illinois that have slid things in because their health inspector was asleep and didn't notice the change. If the inspector did notice the change, permit revoked until such time as approved plans and work done by an approved contractor could be delivered to the correct authorities.
Yes.... I can verify this is correct after dealing with this process last year. An exact replacement of equipment can be done without a permit. Anything that is not an exact replacement needs architectural drawings submitted and a permit issued. We replaced a trichlor feeder with a liquid chlorine feeder system on our outdoor pool and replaced a DE filter with a sand filter on our indoor pool. Both changes required drawings and a permit. The one exception is Controllers. I believe the State allows you to install a Controller without a permit.
 

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