Automation system worth the added expense? Tight budget

[Yetilagoon]

Is adding the "easytouch 8 control system with salt and phone controls". A price tag of $3750 as an option from my potential PB. Worth the expense? We are trying to keep costs down so that we have enough to get everything needed done. (Concrete, pergola etc) We are definitely going with a pebble finish and LED lighting. But wondered if having that automation is really necessary? Is it just for convenience? So that i can turn on my waterfalls and lights from my phone? Or does it actually help to keep your pool running at optimal? If i decided to pass on it will it just mean that i will need to manually check salt/chlorine levels etc?

Thanks

 

[jblizzle]

It is completely optional and for convenience. Seems like quite a markup btw.

With or without it, you still have to test your water to keep it in balance.

 

[Esloser]

It is nice to have. Saves the trips back and forth to the equipment pad. I'd also say that I think it matters what you have in your system. Are you running an attached spa? In-pool cleaner? Waterfall? Deck jets? Heater?

My remote tied into automation can pretty much do everything I could do at the pad from inside my home including changing timers and temperatures.

 

[Yetilagoon]

Thanks jblizzle, Does that automation actually add salt automatically when needed? Its seems to me like having more technology (things to confuse the not so tech savvy) lol. Might well be worth skipping. I dont mind manually turning on waterfalls, spa heater lights etc. plus it would save a lot of money up that i could use for many other things.

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It is nice to have. Saves the trips back and forth to the equipment pad. I'd also say that I think it matters what you have in your system. Are you running an attached spa? In-pool cleaner? Waterfall? Deck jets? Heater?

My remote tied into automation can pretty much do everything I could do at the pad from inside my home including changing timers and temperatures.

yeas we have an attached spa with spillway and 2 waterfalls. Also a heater no deck jets but a rebel pool cleaner will be included.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Y,

It is kind of like the key FOB for your car... You don't "need" it, but once you have it, it would be pretty hard to live without it..

Here is my standard answer to your question...

**** Many people have pools without automation and they work just fine. I do, however, think it is important to know the advantages and the disadvantages of having an automation system.

1. Automation will help you with pool maintenance, but it will not replace the need for you to test your water, understand what you are looking at, and then making sure your water is balanced. (Another reason you need the accuracy of the TF100 test kit.)

2. The best time to install automation is when the pool is being built, because all the connections to the system can be made without having to figure out how you are to get power across 50' of new deck. Also, the additional cost, when compared to the cost of the pool, will be miniscule.

3. Automation systems work best when the same brand is used because then the pieces can "talk" to together. So, in your case I would recommend the EasyTouch 4 (or 8) that has a built in power supply for the SWG and generally comes with the SWG and two valves. ScreenLogic2 is an absolute requirement if you want to be able to control things from your PC or Phone.

Here is a list of what I think the advantages are:

1. Appearance. Instead of having a bunch of different boxes hanging on your wall you have one, professional looking enclosure.

2. Circuit Breaker Panel. The bottom half of the enclosure is a circuit-breaker panel where the breakers for your pool equipment (Pumps, Heater, etc.) are located. This panel is also an excellent place to add surge protector, which is an absolute must if you have the Intelliflo pump. Even if you do not get the automation, make sure your PB includes a surge protector for the pump.

3. SWG Control. Without automation, your SWG will have to have a timer, synced to the pump timer so that it does not run when the pump is off. This function is built into the EasyTouch.

4. Spa mode and SWG output. Normally all the water flows through the SWG, so when in the Spa mode, the EasyTouch reduces the amount of chlorine the SWG produces, so that the Spa users are not subjected to high levels of chlorine.

5. Pool Lighting. The EasyTouch allows you to control your pool lighting from your PC and/or from a schedule. This is another reason to add the EasyTouch now. Once your pool light is wired to switches inside your house, it might be very difficult to get the wiring to any automation system.

6. Control of Spill-over and bubblers. Right now I'm sure you are thinking I want that spillover running 24-hours a day because it is so beautiful.. Well, after a few weeks of having your pH go through the roof, you'll appreciate the ability to only turn it on, when you want it on. The same with the bubblers. With the Easytouch, you can program them to run on a schedule for a few minutes a day to keep the everything properly chlorinated or when you want to "show off" for your guests..

7. Relay Control. The EasyTouch 4 has four (really three) relays that can be used to control other things that use AC power, such as landscape lights. (The EasyTouch has 8 (really 7) relays.

8. Built in Valve controls. The EasyTouch has the ability to control 4 valves. Two work for switching between the Pool and Spa modes, while two others can be programmed to do whatever you might want, like bubbler control. I would note that a lot of bubblers are controlled by manual valves that cannot be automated. You need to be sure to tell your PB that you want Jandy style valves for your bubbler control.

9. Heater Control. The EasyTouch can control your heater.. So, you can be inside and tell your PC what temperature you want the Spa to be and it will tell you when it is ready.

10. ScreenLogic. ScreenLogic allows you to program the EasyTouch with various schedules. It lets you see most all of the inputs and output to the EasyTouch and lets you decide what you want on/off and in the case of your SWG, lets you adjust the % of output on the fly.

11. Pool pump speed... The EasyTouch can be programmed to adjust your pumps speed. So when running just the pool, it can run slow, but when running your waterfall, it will automatically increase the speed to make your waterfall or other water features look exactly how you want them to look.

*******

Thanks for posting and good luck with your decision.

Jim R.

 

[Yetilagoon]

Wow Jim thanks for the great information. That answered all of my questions and swayed me in the direction of its probably a very worth while expense.

 

[Yetilagoon]

Another question on a different topic if i may. We had a Pool company that we signed a contract with and gave a 1k deposit for getting permits. After we signed we immeaditly had doubts and felt pressured into it. (2 week ago). The job isn't scheduled but is for a start time in early Oct. Since then out of curiosity i had 2 other company's give me proposals for the exact pool and one of them came in about 9k cheaper. Which would go along way to helping us complete the whole project (concrete,pergola) that are being done separately. I know we can cancel at anytime so long as no work was started. But my question is if that company pulled permits from the city with my deposit money, am i entitled to those permits?

 

[jblizzle]

I don't know the answer to your permit question.

I will point out that there are varying degrees of automation. You can get the panel without the phone control for cheaper. The only reason I added my basic automation system is because I was adding an swg and solar control at the same time. Although I don't have a spa or heater in the loop. So my setup is very basic.

 

[kcindc]

You have to add salt manually usually a bag to two a year. I have a spa and heater and I do not have automation. It would be nice, but it is a large expense and I don't mind having to manually turn on the heater and the values to run the spa. It takes all of two minutes max including walking over to my equipment pad to turn on the heater and spa.

You might find that you don't run the waterfalls very much because running them raises PH and you will have to add acid more often to lower your PH.

 

[setsailsoon]

Most building permit costs are non-refundable in my experience. That said, it is very doubtful the builder has incurred $1000 already. I'd tell him in writing to stop all work while you evaluate your options. Then look at the specs carefully to evaluate the cheaper bids. Don't go on what's said only what's written. Verbal agreements are only binding if you can prove them and you'll never be able to afford a court process to resolve this. Written contracts along with references comparing "apples to apples" on specs and scope are the only way to decide. Often when you do it this way the lowest cost bid is the most expensive when adjusted for scope/specs.

On the automation Jim's answer is the best summary I've seen. Only thing I'd add is if you decide you'd like it but want to defer most of the cost now you can make sure you have an enclosure sufficient for the automation and sub panel/wiring properly sized for future additions. These are cheap to do now and very expensive later because you waste a lot of the original installation cost.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Yetilagoon]

Thanks for the responses. As far as the led lighting and the color automatically changing schemes. Do they make a control for that separately? Or is that only when its used with the control system. I can deal with manually doing everything but it would be nice to have the lights go through the color changing automatically.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Y,

They do make light controllers that do what you want..

That said, without automation you will need a power supply box for the SWG, you will need a breaker panel for equipment pad, and then a controller for your lights. All of which comes standard inside the EasyTouch automation enclosure.

I have simple set up and I am a highly biased fan of automation... I believe in the old adage of... "if you buy an expense tool you only cry when you buy it.. but if you buy a cheap tool, you cry every time you use it..."

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[setsailsoon]

My LED lights are the newer Jandy type (they much improved after a LOT of failures with their initial market entry). You can control these manually from the box or they are often wired to a light switch in the house. To change the color you have to switch the light switch on and off quickly a set number of times based on a little card that has the "code". It's really a pain unless you pick the color you like. Once you do this the lights always come back on to the last color selected. I MUCH PREFER my automation. My wife and I can be out at our favorite bar or restaurant and decide we want to swim when we get home. I can set the pool or spa to heat up to perfection before we get home and do all the control from either phone or computer. We don't have to keep up with another remote. It's all just like Jim said earlier but is it worth it? That's completely personal preference.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Yetilagoon]

That makes sense Jim! I usually always do the same. That new pool bid i got includes the pentair 8 easy logic etc and is 9 k cheaper overall and is a very good local company. So i think if the numbers lign up we will go with them. He is coming back today to go over the details of equipment etc. i guess i just felt obligated to use that first company and sign because the designer was pretty good and worked endlessly with all of our changing things around. But in the end money talks. I could lose the 1k but to save that much money for the same pool i think is worth it.

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My LED lights are the newer Jandy type (they much improved after a LOT of failures with their initial market entry). You can control these manually from the box or they are often wired to a light switch in the house. To change the color you have to switch the light switch on and off quickly a set number of times based on a little card that has the "code". It's really a pain unless you pick the color you like. Once you do this the lights always come back on to the last color selected. I MUCH PREFER my automation. My wife and I can be out at our favorite bar or restaurant and decide we want to swim when we get home. I can set the pool or spa to heat up to perfection before we get home and do all the control from either phone or computer. We don't have to keep up with another remote. It's all just like Jim said earlier but is it worth it? That's completely personal preference.

I hope this helps.

Chris

thanks Chris. That does help.

 

[miatawnt2b]

I have to say that if I were building a new pool, there would be no way I would do it without automation, especially with a SWG. I think your builders markup is pretty steep though.

 

[Yetilagoon]

Yes $3700. Seems like a lot! Maybe i should ask him why its so high. My wife thinks we should ditch the automation and use it for patio furniture. Tough decision.

 

[Nectarologist]

Hi Yetilagoon. Re: permits. In my town the permits are issued for the homeowner so even if the PB said "I'm not giving you the permits" it doesn't mean too much since the town issued them to me. Granted they are the contractor on the permit but I could change it myself at the building dept and I'd probably just need to submit proof of required insurance for the PB. This assume I'm using the same exact specs/plans. You can get a copy made from the building dept and give it to your new person. I'd be surprised if they said you have to do a totally new permit b/c you changed builders. Maybe a small fee for changing the name?? Worth looking into. 9k is a TON!!! Make sure it's apples to apples.

 

[Yetilagoon]

Hi Yetilagoon. Re: permits. In my town the permits are issued for the homeowner so even if the PB said "I'm not giving you the permits" it doesn't mean too much since the town issued them to me. Granted they are the contractor on the permit but I could change it myself at the building dept and I'd probably just need to submit proof of required insurance for the PB. This assume I'm using the same exact specs/plans. You can get a copy made from the building dept and give it to your new person. 9k is a TON!!! Make sure it's apples to apples.

Thats what i was thinking too. Thanks for the reassurance! I may have to see what my city says.

 

[Swampwoman]

Yeti, I like and agree with Jim's response, but am posting my "cheap seats retrofit" info just in case your wife is determined on that furniture acquisition

In my case, I wanted to automate after buying a winter air dome to attempt yearround physio-swimming in Michigan. So I needed to have the heater turn on in the middle of the night to run up my temps.

My pool is a simple set up valve-wise with no water features. My swg is Aquarite, pump was an old Hayward (now retrofitted with a variable speed motor.) It had an old Intermatic mechanical timer.

Instead of retrofitting a major Hayward or Pentair controller, I found the Intermatic PE653 on sale at Smarthome for $320. It can handle a single speed pump or intelliflo vsp (but requires an add-on for other VSPs), can thermostat or dead start/stop the heater, and dead start/stops the swg...but doesn't control percentage. It can run lights (there are 5 relays) and with an expansion, can also run valve actuators. It comes with a waterproof hand held controller you can use in the pool, eg, bump up the heat with the included temp sensor, it also runs freeze protection.

It does a great job and was an easy install for my electrician even though it was retro.

Here's what I can't do with it...I can't decide while offsite to increase my heater temp and turn it on for when I get home. I can't bump up the swg percentage from inside the house...need to trudge out to the pool house Instead, I have to schedule for most likely scenarios. Some people have had luck integrating it with zwave, whole home automation systems, and you could get offsite control that way through Vera, for example. But not out of the box.

So while I agree with Jim 100% that its best to get the brand that fully talks with all your equipment and that there's no easier time to install during the build, I will also say that it is possible to spend considerably less than you're being quoted and still have some of the conveniences of automation. I honestly doubt I'd bother upgrading for my purposes ymmv.

 

[setsailsoon]

Yeti, I like and agree with Jim's response, but am posting my "cheap seats retrofit" info just in case your wife is determined on that furniture acquisition

In my case, I wanted to automate after buying a winter air dome to attempt yearround physio-swimming in Michigan. So I needed to have the heater turn on in the middle of the night to run up my temps.

My pool is a simple set up valve-wise with no water features. My swg is Aquarite, pump was an old Hayward (now retrofitted with a variable speed motor.) It had an old Intermatic mechanical timer.

Instead of retrofitting a major Hayward or Pentair controller, I found the Intermatic PE653 on sale at Smarthome for $320. It can handle a single speed pump or intelliflo vsp (but requires an add-on for other VSPs), can thermostat or dead start/stop the heater, and dead start/stops the swg...but doesn't control percentage. It can run lights (there are 5 relays) and with an expansion, can also run valve actuators. It comes with a waterproof hand held controller you can use in the pool, eg, bump up the heat with the included temp sensor, it also runs freeze protection.

It does a great job and was an easy install for my electrician even though it was retro.

Here's what I can't do with it...I can't decide while offsite to increase my heater temp and turn it on for when I get home. I can't bump up the swg percentage from inside the house...need to trudge out to the pool house Instead, I have to schedule for most likely scenarios. Some people have had luck integrating it with zwave, whole home automation systems, and you could get offsite control that way through Vera, for example. But not out of the box.

So while I agree with Jim 100% that its best to get the brand that fully talks with all your equipment and that there's no easier time to install during the build, I will also say that it is possible to spend considerably less than you're being quoted and still have some of the conveniences of automation. I honestly doubt I'd bother upgrading for my purposes ymmv.

Swampwoman,

I took a quick look at this system. Wow! Great way to get most of benefits at a very low cost! Doesn't have the high end wifi interface needed for cell phone and computer but has sufficient channels to do all normal controls plus has expansion capability. Also the 80 amp load center is available for less than $200. Even if you have to hire an electrician this should be installed for around $1000 or less including labor.

Great find!

Chris