Automated Testing

[Mutchinator]

They offer a no questions asked return policy - so there is zero risk if the case. Companies and tech like this only gets better when people give them a chance - and it helps accelerate the development and refinement.

Their subscription model is a common model - and we obviously see it across various markets and products. The large upfront cost sort of sucks but maybe if they or someone else hits critical mass - the cost model will be more user friendly.

I may give it a shot - nothing to lose and will definitely post my results here as well.

 

[Bperry]

Some light reading …

Why AI is harder than we think

Self-Driving Cars Could Be Decades Away, No Matter What Elon Musk Said

Experts aren’t sure when, if ever, we’ll have truly autonomous vehicles that can drive anywhere without help. First, AI will need to get a lot smarter.

www.wsj.com

Its funny to think about how much real intelligence it takes to design even poor artificial intelligence.

 

[Bperry]

They offer a no questions asked return policy - so there is zero risk if the case. Companies and tech like this only gets better when people give them a chance - and it helps accelerate the development and refinement.

Their subscription model is a common model - and we obviously see it across various markets and products. The large upfront cost sort of sucks but maybe if they or someone else hits critical mass - the cost model will be more user friendly.

I may give it a shot - nothing to lose and will definitely post my results here as well.

They pay for return shipping as well or can it be purchased retail?

 

[cledee]

They offer a no questions asked return policy - so there is zero risk if the case. Companies and tech like this only gets better when people give them a chance - and it helps accelerate the development and refinement.

Their subscription model is a common model - and we obviously see it across various markets and products. The large upfront cost sort of sucks but maybe if they or someone else hits critical mass - the cost model will be more user friendly.

I may give it a shot - nothing to lose and will definitely post my results here as well.

Yes, but the product has to work. Otherwise you are paying to try a product. When people bought Tesla they knew they could drive it. When people bought first iphone people knew it was still a phone. These products are experimental, not ready for the public, but are marketed as replacements for regular testing. I might as well go back to the pool stores for testing. I will watch from afar and wait for a lot of people to try for over multiple years.

 

[Mutchinator]

Some light reading …

Why AI is harder than we think

Self-Driving Cars Could Be Decades Away, No Matter What Elon Musk Said

Experts aren’t sure when, if ever, we’ll have truly autonomous vehicles that can drive anywhere without help. First, AI will need to get a lot smarter.

www.wsj.com

AI for pool water testing is a little different from a self driving car or autonomous military drones. I can assure you that AI is much further along than any of us realize - military use for instant. Same place that started GPS and the Internet.

I don’t think the concern is whether AI is “ready” - there are other “data driven” tools used today which spot trends in datasets, correlate and help folks (or machines) make more informed decisions. Things like Big Data, elastisearch, machine learning, analytics - these are all being used in various industries and applications with wild success.

Agree with the article related to self driving cars - there are a lot more things at stake tho such as safety, human life, market acceptance, regulations, cyber (ie someone hacking your car)…but self driving cars are not far away. People point out when a self driving car gets in an accident - but how do self driving cars compare to humans in that regard? I’m guessing there is some data out there. A few weeks ago I should have rear ended a dump truck which stopped short on me. I took my eyes off the wheel for a moment and then my seat belt tightened, brakes engaged and lights flashed on my windshield along with audible alert. The car probably saved my life.

I am 100% confident we will see new business models for pool owners - some pool builders offer remote mounting services already but I personally enjoy learning from forums such as TFP and taking testing and water chemistry into my own hands.

Having a device which accurately measured a few key variables is a good thing - the data and ability to leverage things like ML and AI are something which can evolve over time.

Appreciate folks varying opinions on this - it’s definitely change; but it’s not different that the changes we are seeing in other aspects of our lives.

 

[Mutchinator]

Yes, but the product has to work. Otherwise you are paying to try a product. When people bought Tesla they knew they could drive it. When people bought first iphone people knew it was still a phone. These products are experimental, not ready for the public, but are marketed as replacements for regular testing. I might as well go back to the pool stores.

Who said it didn’t work? If it’s low risk and I find that my Taylor testing is comparable - then I would be interested. But if it’s not - I totally agree with you. I’m going to give it a shot and will definitely share my results. If nothing else we can put this thread to bed . Or maybe it just gets more folks to try it out.

 

[cledee]

Who said it didn’t work? If it’s low risk and I find that my Taylor testing is comparable - then I would be interested. But if it’s not - I totally agree with you. I’m going to give it a shot and will definitely share my results. If nothing else we can put this thread to bed . Or maybe it just gets more folks to try it out.

I'm interested in your results, but even if you reported that it works great. $29/$39 per month is steep for a product that only test for FC, PH and Alkalinity. This kinda reminds me of the Google Glasses tech that Google sold for like over $1,000 a piece. I don't know if it was cool, but it sure was expensive and it kinda worked.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

There was an incredibly prescient and forward looking movie about all this “technology stuff” a few years back but I’m struggling to remember the name ….. oh yeah!!!

Wall-E by Pixar

Sorry, I’d rather not be one of the chubby little stump-legged hover chair people struggling to activate their AI touchscreen to order another root beef float …

To quote a modified version of Sigmund Freud -
“Sometimes a pool is just a pool … best to not overthink it “

 

[Mutchinator]

There was an incredibly prescient and forward looking movie about all this “technology stuff” a few years back but I’m struggling to remember the name ….. oh yeah!!!

Wall-E by Pixar

Sorry, I’d rather not be one of the chubby little stump-legged hover chair people struggling to activate their AI touchscreen to order another root beef float …

To quote a modified version of Sigmund Freud -
“Sometimes a pool is just a pool … best to not overthink it “

I’m a Jetson’s guy myself - still waiting for my robotic housekeeper

 

[poolnovice1]

I keep seeing ads for Sutro on Facebook. If you need to advertise a product that badly, it's not worth buying. I'm not throwing away any more money on useless pool products. It takes me 20 mins a week to test my chemicals. So no thanks, I'll stick with what I'm doing.

 

[Mutchinator]

I keep seeing ads for Sutro on Facebook. If you need to advertise a product that badly, it's not worth buying. I'm not throwing away any more money on useless pool products. It takes me 20 mins a week to test my chemicals. So no thanks, I'll stick with what I'm doing.

Maybe they'll find some clueless pool owners to take advantage of. The same ones that pool stores have been taking advantage of.

I think it’s unfair to suggest people who may own a device are “clueless.” Some of us value our time and also appreciate the evolving technology. Personally I visit a pool store (or Amazon) for two things - and that’s CYA and a 5 gallons chlorine jug (easier for the few times I use to Jack up my chlorine). Otherwise it’s Borax, Baking Soda, Ice Melt (DowFlake), MA, Water Softener Salt.

And some companies invest their marketing dollars into online vs media ads. Especially new tech companies - the fact that you’re on TFP (yes FB knows), just puts you in the target of these ads. And if you’re reading posts about Sutro on TFP then I wonder (don’t know for sure) if that further make you a “potential buyer”.

I do find it interesting how polarizing such a mundane topic has become - especially on TFP forums which are generally supportive of members.

 

[Katodude]

I do find it interesting how polarizing such a mundane topic has become - especially on TFP forums which are generally supportive of members

I think what you are seeing here is just a healthy dose of skepticism. Most of these devices just dont work. Or they dont work well enough for TFP. For example the Sutra measures FC levels of 0-5. Not good enough for most TFP members. Also we dont actually believe it will work well enough to do that.

Now if the device had a true FC sensor, that only needed to be calibrated every 6 months, and would last for at least 2-5 years and would cost less than $500 and had no monthly fees. If you could set thresholds where it would notify you at certain levels of FC or pH. A bunch of people here would buy it. Drop the price to less than $300 and a lot more people would buy it.

At some point even Matt would buy it because its a better solution than the current drop test. That is the key, non of these devices are better than what everyone already has.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

At some point even Matt would buy it because its a better solution than the current drop test.

Don’t hold your breath … @Jimrahbe tried for years to convince me ScreenLogic was worth the $400 and I still happily use my old school RF EasyTouch remote. The only reason why I would buy and install an IntelliCenter - because it will likely be the only Pentair product for pool automation available. When I do, I will have to see if it can be operated without using any internet connection at all.

Thankfully I don’t get Sutro ads because I don’t use Facebook (or Twitter, or Instagram, etc). As you can see, the data mining and privacy violations that go on are quite amazing. Say one word in a text message or TFP chat and, BOOM!, you suddenly get lots of targeted ads. Take some advice - turn on privacy controls to their maximum extent possible, use browsers that limit all privacy invasion (Brave and DuckDuckGo work well enough) and use a decent VPN to encrypt and bounce your IP traffic around (NordVPN and Encrypt.Me are decent).

The questions to ask about all this tech stuff is this - to what ends and at what cost? Right now, reagent testing gets me at least 200ppb (0.2ppm) resolution and, knowing what I know, I can easily tweak that to 0.1ppm. That is already OVERKILL for a pool. My testing regimen takes exactly 20 to 30 mins of my “valuable” time over an ENTIRE WEEK (~ 0.3%). In the last 8 years of pool ownership and with testing sporadically on a weekly basis I have never had an algae bloom even while traveling on summer vacations. And all I do is follow the principals that are taught by TFP.

So tell me again, how is spending hundreds of dollars per season on a floating piece of plastic that connects to my router going to improve my situation significantly enough to justify the cost? Why is having pool data streamed to my phone every 250ms even necessary? And how is being the caretaker of finicky test equipment any better than being a caretaker of finicky pool equipment (or worse, having to be a caretaker of both)?

As someone who worked in a chemistry lab and with sensitive analytical equipment I can assure you that you simply don’t understand how these instruments work in the real world and how much effort it takes to keep them working properly (regardless of what the fancy sales literature says). No amount of miniaturization is going to change that and their basic design hasn’t changed much since they first came into existence nearly 100 years ago. The hype is truly something to behold once you know what the “wizard” behind the curtain looks like … But don’t let me stop you from holding your breath, “hypoxic blue” is a good color on you.

 

[joboo7777]

.

I keep seeing ads for Sutro on Facebook. If you need to advertise a product that badly, it's not worth buying. I'm not throwing away any more money on useless pool products. It takes me 20 mins a week to test my chemicals. So no thanks, I'll stick with what I'm doing.

Maybe they'll find some clueless pool owners to take advantage of. The same ones that pool stores have been taking advantage of.

20 mins a week over the course of a year is over 17 hours. That’s a lot and even more when you start adding additional years. I can find better things to do with 17hrs of time than test my pool water if it can be done with the same or better accuracy than I can.

Many legit companies advertise on social media. Once you’ve searched it yourself you’re going to get ads about it. Just recently we bought a Peloton and now my wife’s Facebook page is covered with Peloton and Nordic track ads. Both reputable companies within the fitness equipment sector.

As for clueless pool owners. I would argue that these same clueless pool owners may be more informed than the average. The Lamotte Spintouch device used by most pool stores these days have been NSF certified to read most parameters. In some cases higher than Taylor drop reagents.

It’s also very important to understand that NSF applies no bias toward testing equipment. They don’t care if its Taylor, Lamotte, or TFP.net(which really is a repackaging of Taylor). They provide science based facts when certifying products.

NSF has already certified some automated testing products like PH and ORP probes. Once they certify a FC probe or device like Sutro that is reasonably priced and easy to implement I’m on board. It’s coming.

 

[Donldson]

I can find better things to do with 17hrs of time

Me too. And yeah, if we were talking about 17 contiguous hours then you'd be spot on. But we aren't talking about that, are we? No, we're talking 3 minutes a day. Now maybe you can think of something amazing you can do with 3 minutes a day, in which case I'm willing to wager you're wasting much more than that on other activities that you can devote to this much more amazing activity. Myself, I'm not really the type to plan out my day in 3-minute increments.

 

[cledee]

20 mins a week over the course of a year is over 17 hours. That’s a lot and even more when you start adding additional years. I can find better things to do with 17hrs of time than test my pool water if it can be done with the same or better accuracy than I can.

Many legit companies advertise on social media. Once you’ve searched it yourself you’re going to get ads about it. Just recently we bought a Peloton and now my wife’s Facebook page is covered with Peloton and Nordic track ads. Both reputable companies within the fitness equipment sector.

As for clueless pool owners. I would argue that these same clueless pool owners may be more informed than the average. The Lamotte Spintouch device used by most pool stores these days have been NSF certified to read most parameters. In some cases higher than Taylor drop reagents.

It’s also very important to understand that NSF applies no bias toward testing equipment. They don’t care if its Taylor, Lamotte, or TFP.net(which really is a repackaging of Taylor). They provide science based facts when certifying products.

NSF has already certified some automated testing products like PH and ORP probes. Once they certify a FC probe or device like Sutro that is reasonably priced and easy to implement I’m on board. It’s coming.

We are all in agreement. If a device can do it well and reasonably priced we are all onboard. Automatic pool cleaner on board, SWG on board, heater on board. For convenience people don't mind paying. But for me personally $200 plus $29 a month is too steep for a device that gives less than half of testing you need and the chlorine test only goes to 5PPM. If you have extra money, you could be investing it, or saving it for other pool items that work like a new cell, or a new pool cleaner, ect. Don't waste your money on an incomplete device.

 

[joboo7777]

We are all in agreement. If a device can do it well and reasonably priced we are all onboard. Automatic pool cleaner on board, SWG on board, heater on board. For convenience people don't mind paying. But for me personally $200 plus $29 a month is too steep for a device that gives less than half of testing you need and the chlorine test only goes to 5PPM. If you have extra money, you could be investing it, or saving it for other pool items that work like a new cell, or a new pool cleaner, ect. Don't waste your money on an incomplete device.

Agreed. It’s definitely too much money. The TCO over 3 years is over 1200$!! But the IT guy in me still wants to kick the tires alittle to see how far away they are to being a sustainable, accurate, automated solution.

 

[Mutchinator]

Don’t hold your breath … @Jimrahbe tried for years to convince me ScreenLogic was worth the $400 and I still happily use my old school RF EasyTouch remote. The only reason why I would buy and install an IntelliCenter - because it will likely be the only Pentair product for pool automation available. When I do, I will have to see if it can be operated without using any internet connection at all.

Thankfully I don’t get Sutro ads because I don’t use Facebook (or Twitter, or Instagram, etc). As you can see, the data mining and privacy violations that go on are quite amazing. Say one word in a text message or TFP chat and, BOOM!, you suddenly get lots of targeted ads. Take some advice - turn on privacy controls to their maximum extent possible, use browsers that limit all privacy invasion (Brave and DuckDuckGo work well enough) and use a decent VPN to encrypt and bounce your IP traffic around (NordVPN and Encrypt.Me are decent).

The questions to ask about all this tech stuff is this - to what ends and at what cost? Right now, reagent testing gets me at least 200ppb (0.2ppm) resolution and, knowing what I know, I can easily tweak that to 0.1ppm. That is already OVERKILL for a pool. My testing regimen takes exactly 20 to 30 mins of my “valuable” time over an ENTIRE WEEK (~ 0.3%). In the last 8 years of pool ownership and with testing sporadically on a weekly basis I have never had an algae bloom even while traveling on summer vacations. And all I do is follow the principals that are taught by TFP.

So tell me again, how is spending hundreds of dollars per season on a floating piece of plastic that connects to my router going to improve my situation significantly enough to justify the cost? Why is having pool data streamed to my phone every 250ms even necessary? And how is being the caretaker of finicky test equipment any better than being a caretaker of finicky pool equipment (or worse, having to be a caretaker of both)?

As someone who worked in a chemistry lab and with sensitive analytical equipment I can assure you that you simply don’t understand how these instruments work in the real world and how much effort it takes to keep them working properly (regardless of what the fancy sales literature says). No amount of miniaturization is going to change that and their basic design hasn’t changed much since they first came into existence nearly 100 years ago. The hype is truly something to behold once you know what the “wizard” behind the curtain looks like … But don’t let me stop you from holding your breath, “hypoxic blue” is a good color on you.

Lol. I would be mindful of casting someone as being what you think they are. I am an engineer and computer science guy; so I understand your take. Took plenty of chemistry and organic chem in college - although I forgot much of it due to lack of use. My company likely builds the brains behind much of that sensitive test equipment and data acquisition elements. Also being an IT geek - I use Brave, DDG and Startpage along with VPN if I see the need. Not for any reason aside from enjoying my privacy as you mention. I could probably hack the hackers but not worth it. I don’t take the comments personally tho - everyone has their opinion; it’s what helps drive productive dialog. If we associate purely with folks who think like ourselves - we will quickly lose the ability to have meaningful and open dialog - which may differ from our own. It’s also probably good for each of us to know our audience, so we effectively communicate meaningful and accurate content.

Back to topic at hand - I actually don’t mind the testing when I have time and I have never had an algae issue. Folks like me read your posts and learn a lot - so thank you.

btw I have IntelliCenter and it’s so-so. It works - with and without internet connection (you can direct connect); but some of the user experience is confusing at times. I just upgraded my entire pad last year - all Pentair. Maybe I need to setup my drone to grab me a water sample and bring it into the house where I can test inside.

I think we beat the “automated pool testing” to death now - so now I need to figure out why the heck my plaster finish is looking like he##.

 

[joboo7777]

Me too. And yeah, if we were talking about 17 contiguous hours then you'd be spot on. But we aren't talking about that, are we? No, we're talking 3 minutes a day. Now maybe you can think of something amazing you can do with 3 minutes a day, in which case I'm willing to wager you're wasting much more than that on other activities that you can devote to this much more amazing activity. Myself, I'm not really the type to plan out my day in 3-minute increments.

It’s definitely hard to see a few minutes a week. I’m looking at it from a broader automation perspective. There is a saying “Death by a thousand cuts”. 20mins here, 20 mins there, 5 mins, etc. this adds up. Pretty soon 2 hrs a week or 20 mins a day sounds pretty good to me. I can get 9 holes in plus a beer after with that savings!!

 

[joboo7777]

It’s definitely hard to see a few minutes a week. I’m looking at it from a broader automation perspective. There is a saying “Death by a thousand cuts”. 20mins here, 20 mins there, 5 mins, etc. this adds up. Pretty soon 2 hrs a week or 20 mins a day sounds pretty good to me. I can get 9 holes in plus a beer after with that savings!!

Ok.. I’m done.. back to why @Mutchinator plaster is tanking