Auto Fill pipe leaking? Not the float valve

[Dirk]

Merry Christmas!! I just thought of another test you could do. Easy. Cheap. You could put a whole bunch of food coloring into your auto-fill well, now that you have the port plugged up. If the well itself is leaking, the dye may or may not make it through the dirt to that leak you're seeing from your edge tile, but if it did make it, you'd know that your well is leaking (and maybe not the pipe).

I just made this up from thin air. I don't actually know what food coloring will do to the inside of your auto-fill well. Personally, if it were mine, I wouldn't care. If I saw dye on my edge tile, I'd just vacuum all the dyed water out of the well right away, and so not worry about getting dye into the pool. I might flush it out a few times, just to play it safe.

 

[diamonddog]

Merry Christmas!! I just thought of another test you could do. Easy. Cheap. You could put a whole bunch of food coloring into your auto-fill well, now that you have the port plugged up. If the well itself is leaking, the dye may or may not make it through the dirt to that leak you're seeing from your edge tile, but if it did make it, you'd know that your well is leaking (and maybe not the pipe).

I just made this up from thin air. I don't actually know what food coloring will do to the inside of your auto-fill well. Personally, if it were mine, I wouldn't care. If I saw dye on my edge tile, I'd just vacuum all the dyed water out of the well right away, and so not worry about getting dye into the pool. I might flush it out a few times, just to play it safe.

I'm 99 percent sure I have a leaky pipe. When I turn off the autofill valve the water does not trickle in from tile. The pool water level does not rise. The pool level does not raise indicating the autofill tub is not cracked. Besides. The amount of water in the tub would not fill my pool up to the overflow level.

The question is "where is the leaky in the pipe?". I will need a pro. I am hoping it's not too far back. I bet it's at the first elbow joint. But I'm guessing. My thought I is they can demo the auto Fill tub. It will expose the pipe and hopefully dirt. If it's a few feet back, excavate the dirt from the side under the concrete. Fix pipe, pack in dirt and install new auto fill and. Correct valve.

Or find a trench less service (epoxy) to coat the pipe.

Finding a qualified and willing service will be the trick here.

 

[diamonddog]

I was going to try and find info about the replacement system, but I'm out of time today. Google "Trenchless Water Line Replacement." There are probably multiple solutions...

Trenchless Pipe Replacement typically means epoxy coating the existing pipe. The other method is to insert a new pipe as you break the old pipe as you feed it through. In my case I have 2 to 3 elbow, which I think would prevent this

 

[Dirk]

The other method is to insert a new pipe as you break the old pipe as you feed it through. In my case I have 2 to 3 elbow, which I think would prevent this

That's what I was thinking of, but you're right, I guess the elbows would not allow this method.

My buddy just had a return line replaced. They dug under his deck from beyond it, and tunneled under it. I guess where there's a will (and enough money), there's a way.

I wish pool construction included more robust protection of all the underground pipe and conduit. I guess it lasts long enough for most people, so this isn't much of a concern. And, of course, pool contractors don't care, it'll never be their problem! But boy, when it does happen, it's a biiiiiigggg problem for the pool owner. Between ground movement, tree roots, borrowing animals... they're all just so exposed.

 

[diamonddog]

Here is my current disaster for reference:

Auto Fill pipe leaking? Not the float valve

Merry Christmas!! I just thought of another test you could do. Easy. Cheap. You could put a whole bunch of food coloring into your auto-fill well, now that you have the port plugged up. If the well itself is leaking, the dye may or may not make it through the dirt to that leak you're seeing from...

www.troublefreepool.com

I am preparing for a worse case scenario where I can not repair the leaking pvc fill pipe. (cost, breaking concrete). The pool filler in an inground MP Industries float valve filler Water Levelers | Mp Industries

Solution #1 Convert my manual sprinkler valve to an electronic one that I can hook up to a smart sprinkler controller. Set fill times (Once a week for 2-3 hours in Winter, 3 times a week in Summer) This way there is not a lot of back pressure as water should slow during these times on the schedule and the float will stop it during those times when it reaches the set level.

Solution #2 Do the same as above but remove the float valve so that there is never any back pressure and just rely on timed schedules. Or set it manually for things like "turn on for 1 hour" It may still leak underground, but I would think a lot less as there would be no back pressure from float valve to the shut off sprinkler valve its connected to.

Thoughts on this?

How to I control for mosquitos and algae growth? Th 8" tub is about 1/2 filled with fresh water all the time and I don't think the saltwater from the pool pushes into the tub. I tested for chlorine and there is none in there. Previously this was solved as when its working there is daily new fresh water.

On a side note, they do have technology to epoxy coat the inside of a 1/2 pvc pipe and I have them coming out this week. Say a prayer for me.

 

[diamonddog]

Keep in mind, even if there is not enough room near the auto-fill well for the replacement (or epoxy) process, they could break a small amount of concrete to make the room they'd need. You wouldn't necessarily have to trench through your entire deck.

Thanks for your suggestions and help in this. I started a new thread to talk about solutions vs identifying the leak. New problems may occur (of course)

In Ground Auto Fill - Mosquito and Algae prevention - Using a sprinkler timer

Here is my current disaster for reference: https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/auto-fill-pipe-leaking-not-the-float-valve.306137/page-2#post-2672626 I am preparing for a worse case scenario where I can not repair the leaking pvc fill pipe. (cost, breaking concrete). The pool filler in an...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[diamonddog]

Well, this is a problem if not the problem. Sprinkler valves are not rated for 24/7 pressure downstream of them. They are expecting running sprinklers when on/open (low pressure), and then drained or near-empty pipes when off/closed (no pressure). The auto-fill float valve is maintaining the full pressure of your water system on the "wrong" side of that sprinkler valve's pressure relief mechanism, and it is now failing. Unfortunately, this is a typical installation by pool contractors that don't know any better.

Now, those valves can dribble some water when you apply and relieve them of pressure, so the water you're seeing could be that. But if it's not failing now, it will.

You need to replace that valve with one that is rated for full pressure on both sides of it. I use these. They are a good brand:

Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

Just had the leak detection company come out. The leak appears to be at the fitting from the canister in the attached pic. Probably the glue joint. Its only 1 or 2 inches from the leveler, but its under concrete.

As for your input on the correct shut off valve to use, I can only see how that would impact the shut off valve leaking, right? Had that been installed, I may not have a leak at the shutoff valve itself, but the pipe would still have leaked as there would still have been constant pressure on it. Its not a big deal to replace shut off valves that are above ground.

So the takeaway is that I think I would still have this leak 1" from the canister, at the fitting even if the correct shutoff valve per your link was installed?

The leak is very slow per the leak detector guys. I also never had the shut off valve all the way open which I would think means the water psi was lower than if the valve was all the way open?

 

[Dirk]

So the takeaway is that I think I would still have this leak 1" from the canister, at the fitting even if the correct shutoff valve per your link was installed?

Correct. You have two separate, unrelated problems. (1) a leak in the fitting to your auto-fill well, and (2) the incorrect auto-fill system shut-off valve, which may or may not be leaking now, or may or may not start leaking someday. The failure of the fitting had nothing to do with the type of auto-fill system shut-off valve you have.

Once you get the fitting fixed, you can repeat the city water meter leak test to determine if the auto-fill system shut-off valve is leaking or not. And then decide if you want to replace it now, or wait until it actually fails.

The leak is very slow per the leak detector guys. I also never had the shut off valve all the way open which I would think means the water psi was lower than if the valve was all the way open?

Don't quote me on this, but I don't think it works the way you're describing. A partially open valve will deliver less flow, but once the exit point is closed off (in this case the auto-fill float valve), the pressure will rise in the pipe after the auto-fill system shut-off valve and in short order equalize with the pressure before the auto-fill system shut-off valve.

I expect, except for a few minutes after the auto-fill float valve closes, the leak will resume at the same rate regardless of the position of the auto-fill system shut-off valve, unless that valve is fully closed.

So congrat's, could have been better, but could have been a whole lot worse.