Appreciate feedback on a new pool

[PWMac]

Hello. Glad I found this site and value all the info people are sharing.

This is the first pool I'm building but had a pool at a previous home for a couple years. I have talked with 4 builders in the Phoenix area here's the latest plan we are considering. I had installed a Pentair VS pump and salt cell at my old house and really liked it but 3 out the 4 builders I'm talking to are using Hayward. The pb who gave the bid below said that Hayward is more efficient and the Paramount infloor cleaning has lifetime warranty so I'm considering being open to switching. He also recommended just starting with chlorine and if I don't like it add the salt cell later. I was ok with this because then I could get whatever I want.

The dogs are probably going to be using the pool the most so wanted a large shelf and bench to stand on. I had wanted the first step to go all the way across the pool but the pb advised against it. We thought about having a gas heater and spa but at about $25K for the quotes we received I don't think we would use enough to get the value. Would getting an electric heat pump add many more swimming days in AZ?

Appreciate any suggestions on this build or recommendations in the Phx area.

Thanks!

 

[HermanTX]

Hayward, Pentair and Jandy are the big 3 in pool equipment so it comes down to personal preference or what that specific PB offers with his package.
If you will be having an Hayward Automation system then it is best to have a Hayward SWCG so that the interface is seamless. Also, have the SWCG rated for 2x your pool volume.
There is no reason to delay in putting in the SWCG at the beginning. The plumbing becomes easier with knowing that a SWCG needs to be put in from the start.
Just remember that you can not add salt to your pool for 30 days (with new plaster) so you will need to add liquid chlorine initially but don’t let the PB talk you out of setting up the SWCG from the start. Once you past 30 days you can then test for salt, add what is needed and start the SWCG.
If you read some of the threads on members that use LC, you will see there is a shortage of LC across many areas and members are setting up to purchase SWCGs now. So do not wait and get it installed from the initial set up.

 

[PWMac]

Thank you for the info @HermanTX!

 

[pjt]

3' is extremely shallow. I'd suggest 4' for the shallow end.

I wouldn't recommend an IFCS.

Will you be getting a SWCG? What model pump?

 

[halleys5]

Having a brand new Hayward SWG and "automation" controller, I cannot say that I would go that way again.
Hayward programming is mostly by one or two button entry and simple tasks like pump run speeds/times are all dependent on continuous power to the pump. Lose power, your pump starts its routine at 00:00.
From the little research I've done, it sounds like the Pentair system is better in that regard.
I'm sure there are plenty of other opinions out there on this.

 

[jonpcar]

Hey @PWMac, I don’t usually participate in these pool build feedbacks because there are so many more experienced people who know a lot more than me. But since you are considering an IFCS, here’s some feedback.

Are you really set on the pool shape/features you have shown? It seems like half-a-pool to me since it is only about 8x30 for the main pool section, not long enough for laps and not big enough really to play in. I assume you have all the baja/seating areas for your dogs. Hopefully there’s no kids over 4 because I don’t think the design is very kid friendly at all.

With that pool shape and all the shelves, I think it might be very difficult to rely on a robot to clean it effectively (@robotowners, please respond if this is an error, I have never had one).

The proposed IFCS design is very expensive (~$10k vs $50k total pool, 20%), particularly because it requires many, many popup heads (25). I am sure this is to deal with all the shelves as the low-flow limited-range popups are always put in on shelves and steps. For comparison, my similarly sized pool has 8 pool popups and 6 step popups (total 14).

I love my IFCS… I have not had to deal with cords or tubes or hauling equipment back and forth for 30+ years, but it is (now) a well-designed system. There are many whose IFCS systems are NOT well designed and with so many popups, yours could be one of them. That many popups pushes to the max the required RPM by your pump and you might have to run it close to MAX RPM (3450) during “cleaning time”, especially if you use a Venturi skimmer which will “steal” a portion of the gpm/psi output.

If you are set on an IFCS, here are my recommendations for EVERY new IFCS installation. The pool builder and/or IFCS company may tell you differently, but if I was building a new pool (I never will) with an IFCS, I would insist on these:

• 1) You need to have your pool wall returns (I see you have three) NOT plumbed into one of the IFCS valve zone outputs. I consider this is a major IFCS flaw for those that have this. Instead, at the pad, you need to have an automated 3-way valve to select between IFCS popup returns OR pool wall returns.
• 2) You need to have your main drain and skimmer plumbed separately to the pad with an automated 3-way valve to select between skimmer suction OR main drain suction.
• 3) You need to have an automation system that allows selection of A) IFCS popup returns AND main drain suction for high RPM IFCS cleaning B) pool wall returns AND skimmer suction for low RPM skimming/chlorinating. I think your proposed automation system could allow this (using Pool/SPA modes), but am not positive.
• 4) For Paramount systems (which require ~60gpm), you need to ensure that all IFCS popup returns are 2” PVC (probably standard) and the main drain to pad should be 2 ½” PVC (Paramount specification).
• 5) The Venturi skimmer is OK to add, but MAKE SURE that they additionally include a suction return line to the pad that allows for traditional skimming as in #2 above. Otherwise, a regular skimmer is fine if you have #1, #2, and #3
• 6) I would recommend the A&A channel drain over the Paramount drain, which I’ve never understood how is supposed to work.
• 7) You want a total of three JANDY 3-way valves (automated with actuators) in your pad plumbing: One for waterfall/no waterfall selection, one for IFCS/Wall return selection, and one for Drain/Skimmer suction selection.

Other Considerations:

Where are your lights going to be put? Ours are pointed towards the house/patio, and I hate it.

I didn’t see a line item for an Automatic Fill Valve…almost a must have in AZ. Ideally, you can eventually hook it up to a soft water source for topping off of the pool because of calcium buildup that is horrendous over time and requires draining of the pool every 3-4 years or so.

Heater: I only swim 4 months out of the year because I hate “cold” water: Jun, Jul, Aug, Sep. The dogs won’t care for a couple/few months on either side of that…you may be different.

Consider doing the patio cover/possibly some decking separately if you want to try and save some money.

 

[PWMac]

Thank you! I'm taking notes on all your feedback. We don't have kids and will just be dogs swimming and wife and I lounging with friends. I thought 30' would be long enough to dip under and swim a little. Are there other fun adult games to play?

 

[jonpcar]

It sounds like your pool will be fine for your purposes. The biggest concern I had about kids is that their #1 fun thing to do is jump in, which you won’t have to worry about.

In case you decide to go with an IFCS, let me summarize what I believe is the main AUTOMATION requirement. You want the ability to :

(1) schedule the IFCS cleaning for about 3-6 hours a day using high RPM (2700-3450) with FULL gpm returning through the popups and FULL suction pulling from the main drain. This removes stirred-up bottom debris via the filter.

(2) schedule skimming/chlorinating for 4-21 hours a day using low RPM (1000-1400) with FULL gpm returning through the wall returns and FULL suction pulling from the skimmer…much more effective and efficient to skim the debris BEFORE it sinks.

Make sure you get to see the IFCS engineering so that you can ask for changes if necessary. I believe the proposed Hayward control system will support this but you want to make sure. And remember that this requires a total of three automated 3-way JANDY valves, which includes the waterfall control. It’s almost identical to my system.

 

[PWMac]

It sounds like your pool will be fine for your purposes. The biggest concern I had about kids is that their #1 fun thing to do is jump in, which you won’t have to worry about.

In case you decide to go with an IFCS, let me summarize what I believe is the main AUTOMATION requirement. You want the ability to :

(1) schedule the IFCS cleaning for about 3-6 hours a day using high RPM (2700-3450) with FULL gpm returning through the popups and FULL suction pulling from the main drain. This removes stirred-up bottom debris via the filter.

(2) schedule skimming/chlorinating for 4-21 hours a day using low RPM (1000-1400) with FULL gpm returning through the wall returns and FULL suction pulling from the skimmer…much more effective and efficient to skim the debris BEFORE it sinks.

Make sure you get to see the IFCS engineering so that you can ask for changes if necessary. I believe the proposed Hayward control system will support this but you want to make sure. And remember that this requires a total of three automated 3-way JANDY valves, which includes the waterfall control. It’s almost identical to my system.

Very good info! Thank you again for your time. Here's an updated picture with it deeper and stairs on both sides of shelf. They said 25 heads were needed with the number of ledges. I'm not loving this design either so going to have to think about this some more.

 

[HermanTX]

I'm not loving this design either so going to have to think about this some more.

There is no need for 2 sets of stairs. Remove one set and replace with a bench 18 inches below the surface. Or can put removal stools. I was just in a pool that had 4 holes in bottom where stools could be positioned. You could simply pick up the stool and move to another hole. This was quite nice for relaxing and talking to the person doing a BBQ nearby.

 

[kimkats]

One of the best pool games out there is watermelon ball!

I would lose the bench on the far side of the pool altogether. It eats up so much of the pool space.