Algae Problem

[mswlogo]

I've had a pool for about 30 years. Generally it has gone pretty smooth and I've been a member on various sites that explain all the common issues of using tablets that cause too high CYA etc.

Anyway the way I have been balancing my pool is that I use a combination of power or pure liquid chlorine for first half of the season. Then use Tablets for the 2nd half.
We go on Vacation in Mid July and really need something to keep the pool in check. So I switch to tablets then. This scheme has worked for years and years. With an occasional Algae bloom that a shock and vac would take care of.

Until the last few years the Algae is relentless. I've shocked with 4 gallons of pure liquid chlorine twice, follow by "Poly 60" Algaecide. Still 4 days later Algae is back.

Went to the dealer that installed the pool who is very laid back and says, just use this. I'm 99% it was Sodium Bromide based (like this stuff Swamp Treat Pool Algae Eliminator).
Well after that, my pool would NOT hold chlorine at all. Put a Gallon of pure Chlorine and 1 hr later it was completely gone. It acted like this for like 3 weeks.
I didn't care for the smell the water and I got a couple small stains in the liner I got out easily.

Even that it was a little chaotic, it WORKED !! The rest of the summer was fine.

So I go back to the dealer for some of the same stuff this year and he has something different.

I really didn't like using the Sodium Bromide based stuff, but I wasting so much on Chlorine, Electricity and and Polyquat 60 I was ready to it again.

CYA was a bit high last year (like 90 - 100). It's around 60 now.

Every year the pool seems to be running warmer. Hit 88F the other day. That's pretty high this early in season.

I do run a clear solar cover. And have for years.

I have checked for Phosphates and it's normal.

It's a 22K Gallon pool.

I have a Sta-Rite filter. The Element is original and looks perfect. I have it professionally cleaned every couple years.
I use a Robot to Vac Pool and don't vac to waste. I never have, and never had an issue. Again, I'm talking 30 years.

Could my pipes have Algae in them.
Could the filter element be too porous and letting too much through?

I just put the Sodium Bromide (Swamp Treat) in today. I'm not 100% sure it's the same stuff.

 

[BattleOfYakima]

Welcome to TFP! I'm glad that overall your pool has been a great experience. We .... do things a little differently here, as ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry explains.

As for your question, algae can live on the walls, in the pipes, even in the filter itself if the sanitizer (chlorine) is not at the correct level. What is the correct level, that depends on the CYA/stabilizer level, as explained [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA].

We deal with algae one way and one way only, a process (not a one time chemical dump) that we call the SLAM Process. It flat out works because the science dictates it must. It requires you do your own testing at home, using an approved test kit. The TFP way helps you achieve 1-4ppm of FC loss per day due to nature and sun, with more due to bather load, and if you keep up with the basic pool care schedule, no algae, no algaeides, no special expensive shocks, no swamp treatment ammonia products that probably crash all your FC to zero and let enough bacteria come in to convert some or all of your CYA to zero, resetting your CYA death clock.

If you're ready to make the leap to TFP - we're ready for you! If you want to keep doing it your way and riding the pool store yo-yo and having to close your pool several times a year, we respect that too, but mixing out advice with the pool store's advice doesn't work too well. Are there any other questions you have about TFP or about your pool?

 

[mswlogo]

I've basically been doing SLAM for years.

But I will use the tablets when I'm not around and watch the CYA.
And I use the tablets to add my CYA.
My CYA was 60 so I'll probably have to use tablets a little less than I'd like this year.
Not everyone can baby their pool daily.
Chlorine demand changes with Rain, Sun, Temperature and debris in pool.
This year it's gypsy moths chewing leaves and ending with little fragments in the pool.

I have been shocking the heck out of it with liquid chlorine and it's costing a fortune.
I ended up using the Sodium Bromide (Swamp Treat), it is indeed the same stuff I used last year and is instantly eating the Chlorine.

It it doesn't say it on the bottle, but on Amazon description it says it basically accelerates the Chlorine effectiveness.
That is consistent with instructions. Because you immediately are supposed to shock it after adding it.

I do do my own testing with the large Taylor kit but I also cross check it with pool store and they did excellent job and results matched with what I got and didn't push me to buy anything.

I think I will start using the Sodium Bromide as part of opening the pool.

 

[Husky25]

I've basically been doing SLAM for years.

All due respect, but no you haven't. There are specific steps to the SLAM using only chlorine and it cannot be done haphazardly.If you want to care for your pool in a TFP manner, you'll need a recommended test kit. There is a link in my signature to the TF-100.

Ocean State Job Lot has the best deal on Chlorine (and quite frankly, most other needed pool supplies...i.e. non-filter/pump related) in the Northeast at $2.99 gallon for fresh 12.5% LC. Once you are in balance, it will take about a 1/2 gallon/day to maintain a proper FC level. A case of 4 gallons cost $11.96 + tax which means you can go an entire season for about $150. I literally spend less than 3 minutes/day on maintenance if I am not vacuuming.

I've been using this method for the better part of 3 seasons now and I have had nary a battle (let alone skirmish) with algae. My water was kelly green last year at start up, but by using the methods taught here (except for temperature), it was clear 18 hours later, ready for swimming inside a week, and was in regular use by Memorial Day. With a proper closing last year, The water was crystal clear this Spring and ready for use within 4 days (again disregarding temp.).

 

[BattleOfYakima]

The reason TFP does not suggest Sodium Bromide based chemicals is because, at least in the virtually all cases, is that the way the bromine breaks down (compared to the way bleach/chlorine/sodium hypochlorite) results in compounds that are not swiftly oxidized by bleach and broken down by the sun. These compounds, while not dangerous to humans at moderate levels, are constantly being chipped away at by the bleach/chlorine being added in an attempt to finish off the algae bloom/infestation and after that, daily sanitation. In other words, yes, sodium bromide attacks algae (in some cases, especially well when your CYA is high and you refuse to bring FC up to correct levels via [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]) but the aftermath is why we don't suggest it. Most pools that use sodium bromide based chemicals (there are a lot and swamp treat is one of the lower priced ones, but there are some really well known expensive ones too) end up seeing MUCH higher FC demand after using the treatments compared to if they had only done the SLAM Process. Also, if you live in an area where there are no watering restrictions and your water expense is low, doing a partial drain/refill to reduce CYA generally proves to be cheaper than using a sodium bromide treatment, since a pool with a CYA 30-60 is very easy and cost effective to test and maintain compared with a pool of CYA above 60 (excluding swg applications).

So to be clear, I'm not saying you did anything wrong or anything, but I am saying that when you say:

I have been shocking the heck out of it with liquid chlorine and it's costing a fortune.

My very first thought is: probably used bromine shock at some point. Same old story. Pool store sold them a quick fix that results in a long term headache without explaining to them how bromine breaks down.

Can you overcome this? Absolutely! Hundreds of posts about people who saw their pool get better fast, then crash downhill. Does your kit have the FAS-DPD test that allows you to test for FC and CC? The blue taylor kits called Taylor K-2006 / Leslie's 81329 and k-2006C all have them while the Taylor K-2005 or Leslie's 81330 DPD DO NOT have it. If you don't have the FAS-DPD it can be purchased separately at some pool stores or with extremely fresh chemicals and reasonable shipping at http://tftestkits.net/FAS-DPD-Chlorine-CC-s-test-p47.html.

The sodium bromide has likely caused your FC demand to increase, at least for a while, and the FAS-DPD test, along with your CYA test, will make sure you've got FC at the right levels.

If you wish to use more tablets, a partial drain/refill would allow that.

A great alternative to that would be the addition of a liquid bleach/chlorine auto injection pump system, either DIY (many posts about it search stenner or bleach pump) or the ready to go chlorinator system. The amount of bleach pumped into the pool each day is configurable so that you sanitize your pool with little waste.

And if you are okay jumping to a salt pool, a SWG salt water generator uses electricity and 3-5 year cells to convert salt in the pool to fresh bleach! It can also be tuned to cover your daily FC demand.

- - - Updated - - -

Ocean State Job Lot has the best deal on Chlorine (and quite frankly, most other needed pool supplies...i.e. non-filter/pump related) in the Northeast at $2.99 gallon for fresh 12.5% LC. Once you are in balance, it will take about a 1/2 gallon/day to maintain a proper FC level. A case of 4 gallons cost $11.96 + tax which means you can go an entire season for about $150. I literally spend less than 3 minutes/day on maintenance if I am not vacuuming.

Husky25 - great work sharing the local deal spot and congrats on your TFP!

 

[mswlogo]

I have a Taylor K-2006 test kit.

According to calc I need 526 ounces of 12.5% to shock 22k to 24 FC with CYA at 60

I put 4 gallons. And maintained with 1/2 gallon a day. Algae was back in 3-4 days.
I run the pool 12 hrs a day (on low) which turns water over like 1.5 times.

I did the 4 gallons again about 2 weeks later. Again it's back.

Stop making assumptions I'm a total fool and don't know how to test water or shock my pool to proper level.

Ive bought 4 cases of 12.5% in the last 6 weeks. Been paying $4.50 a gallon.

Thanks for the tip on ocean state. I'll try them but I tend not to like that store for anything regularly needed because you just don't know what they'll have that day.

thanks for the info on sodium bromide. I find it's cheaper than dumping the correct level of 12.5% that wasn't clearing the algae (for good).

I had no issues after using the sodium bromide last year. Yes it ate chlorine, but I didn't fight it (or use more than normal). My understanding was it was a bromide pool for 3 weeks until it burned off. It stayed algae free for the summer.

water is fairly expensive so prefer not drain it. I'll just use more liquid based this year.

maybe I'll have to add a liquid chlorination system. I hate storing that much liquid chlorine though.

 

[mswlogo]

All due respect, but no you haven't. There are specific steps to the SLAM using only chlorine and it cannot be done haphazardly.If you want to care for your pool in a TFP manner, you'll need a recommended test kit. There is a link in my signature to the TF-100.

Ocean State Job Lot has the best deal on Chlorine (and quite frankly, most other needed pool supplies...i.e. non-filter/pump related) in the Northeast at $2.99 gallon for fresh 12.5% LC. Once you are in balance, it will take about a 1/2 gallon/day to maintain a proper FC level. A case of 4 gallons cost $11.96 + tax which means you can go an entire season for about $150. I literally spend less than 3 minutes/day on maintenance if I am not vacuuming.

I've been using this method for the better part of 3 seasons now and I have had nary a battle (let alone skirmish) with algae. My water was kelly green last year at start up, but by using the methods taught here (except for temperature), it was clear 18 hours later, ready for swimming inside a week, and was in regular use by Memorial Day. With a proper closing last year, The water was crystal clear this Spring and ready for use within 4 days (again disregarding temp.).

Ive been doing it for 30 years. And the previous 28 were fine.

My pool was always clear. It's that algae starts to build up and I have to run the robot like every 3 days to stay ahead of it. Normally I'd run robot once every week to 10 days.

opening is never an issue, never has been. Never opened a green pool.

Water might cloud up after after first shock for a few days.

 

[jagger2005]

Welcome to TFP!

Great test kit, knows how to use it, and understands the pit falls of high CYA.

Your water does not sound horrible. All we are suggesting is a little tweak to how you battle algae. Every single person here is going to suggest the same thing - SLAM it. I bet if you are willing to try it for a few days, your battle will be over.

Just the highlights of the SLAM:
If your CYA is 60, then you need to shock it up to 24. The trick is to maintain 24, so you should try and test a couple hours later to see were it is at and bump it back up.
Run the pump 24/7 during the SLAM.
Brush brush brush as often as you can.

You have to pass 3 criteria to complete.
Once the water is clear
And your CC is 0.5 or less
Then you perform the OCLT - overnight chlorine loss test - and if you lost 1 FC or less, done.

The OLCT can be performed any night rather easily and will definitely signal whether or not you have active algae - because it takes FC loss from the sun out of the equation.

 

[BattleOfYakima]

mswlogo - awesome posting sir/ma'am! If I was the one who made you feel like you were being viewed as a fool - I apologize. I had not thought of you as such, and frankly your first post impressed me. It had so much helpful info that we usually have to extract over a half dozen postings that I was eager to jump in your thread! If you read any attitude in my postings - please try to understand - they were probably my feelings about a best friend that still lets his swamps go too close to his pool parties (that are awesome other than his pool) and he crashes his FC with yellow out and other magic potions right before the parties and the water smells and there is still green in the hard to brush spots and it looks like it is snowing underwater, even though the water is what he calls clear. If he just learned to used the test kit I bought him, and used only pages: [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]PoolMathSLAM Process then his parties would be only joyous, and not partially disgusting. Not to mention it would be cheaper for him.

But...just because you used swamp fix - doesn't mean you should get any of that attitude. After all, we all lived a life before TFP. In mine, I had CYA over 200 (oops!), added a copper algaecide (oops!), and cleaned my cartridge way way way way more often/too soon than needed/best (oops!).

I think you are excellently positioned to give our SLAM process another go, this time with an emphasis on the Maintain to an even higher degree than ever before. If you keep your pool at 24 until it is impossibly crystal clear and OCLT is passed and yeah that CC too, I think you'll be set up for your easiest pool care year yet - and hopefully cheapest too!

When you are ready to brainstorm liquid pump plans - and maybe an underground tank so you don't have to store a bunch of jugs - we can start a new thread and invite in our best bleach pump setup people for you, if you wish.

- - - Updated - - -

jagger2005 - didn't see your post before I wrote mine, but very nice points and wordings, thank you!

 

[Leebo]

mswlogo,
For starters I'd like to welcome you to TFP! Now that we've seen your history we'd like slightly more of a photo to where you're at today. If you will, can you please post your current test results from your FAS/DPD test kit. This will help complete the picture of what's going on with your water and will allow us to give updated current advice.

We look forward to helping you!

 

[Casey]

Welcome to TFP.

 

[mswlogo]

mswlogo,
For starters I'd like to welcome you to TFP! Now that we've seen your history we'd like slightly more of a photo to where you're at today. If you will, can you please post your current test results from your FAS/DPD test kit. This will help complete the picture of what's going on with your water and will allow us to give updated current advice.

We look forward to helping you!

FAS/DSP test is useless now that I put Sodium Bromide in for the next 2-3 weeks.

 

[Casey]

FAS/DSP test is useless now that I put Sodium Bromide in for the next 2-3 weeks.

Why? Liquid chlorine is so much more effective.

 

[mswlogo]

Why? Liquid chlorine is so much more effective.

Because it solved it last year and so far has solved it again. First time all summer I get back from 3 day weekend and no sign of algae starting.

I will still give it 1/2 gallon of 12.5% a day, even though the readings won't reflect it.
I think the algae builds up resistance and takes too much chlorine and time to kill.
I think the Sodium Bromide throws a curve at it.

 

[Husky25]

Because it solved it last year and so far has solved it again. First time all summer I get back from 3 day weekend and no sign of algae starting.

I will still give it 1/2 gallon of 12.5% a day, even though the readings won't reflect it.
I think the algae builds up resistance and takes too much chlorine and time to kill.
I think the Sodium Bromide throws a curve at it.

I don't think the science supports that, but if it doesn't hurt your efforts and makes you feel better, have at it. Though I'd let the true chemical experts weigh in on that front.

All that I know is that I haven't stepped foot into a pool supply store in almost three seasons except for hardware repair and don't put any other sanitizer/oxidizer or algaecide in my pool except for liquid chlorine.

At any rate, I hope your algae issue stays under control for the rest of the season and you enjoy your Summer.

 

[BattleOfYakima]

I think we've had a pretty good discussion about this! I thank everyone for pitching in!

Sodium Bromide, no doubt, has especially impressive abilities, in certain circumstances, in one certain application method, to slaughter algae. This is science fact. HOWEVER - it comes with risks that, for the vast, vast majority of pool owners, outweigh the benefits. Anything Sodium Bromide can do in a swimming pool - sodium hypochlorite (bleach) can do when combined with proper brushing, testing, and time.

The difference is - those who gamble with Sodium Bromide are left having to use the very smallest sprinkle directly over the algae (probably no where near the manufacturer suggested dose) and then will have an indeterminate length of time their pools battle their own bleach - and testing is unreliable - and is left predominately unprotected from the sun/UV since the CYA isnt' able to do its job anymore. Additionally, you run the risk of having too high a level of the end result carcinogen from the bromine's life. In bromine hot tubs, where water is dumped every so often, this build up isn't a massive threat, but in pools, this isn't guaranteed.

So long story short - using Sodium Bromide is not a suggested TFP route in any bleach pools. While it might help you clear your pool faster - it certainly does not leave you a trouble free pool. Reading any thread with Sodium Bromide use will prove that.

This pool owner used it with what they deemed great results, and used it again. That's fine. Their pool, their choice. We all wish them the very best. If they decide not being able to test and having 1-3x the daily FC demand for the weeks following the Sodium Bromide treatment isn't worth it, they will drain and refill and move on with life, having tried something that didn't work. No big deal, we all make mistakes that waste resources along the path. Risk reward.

If this pool owner wants to drain and refill, we're here to help, no doubt. Unfortunately, helping them manage the aftermath of the Sodium Bromide treatment is guessing in the dark since testing and monitoring effective sanitizer levels is impossible, TFP strategies are not possible, so I'll leave it to them.

 

[mswlogo]

I've read some positive results using Sodium Bromide on this site, for a very similar situations. I think it's partly knowing what to expect and following directions, which I followed to a "T".
I also didn't get the poor taste in the water I got last year when I used it (difference brand). Yes we actually got in the pool. I feel safer getting into this than a pool at insane shock levels that I'd still be at.

Folks seem to be very quick to suggest or solve problems with Drain and Refill. I have never had to drain a drop in 30 years except to lower it after excessive rain.
There would be absolutely no reason to drain and refill after one Sodium Bromide treatment in a Chlorine Pool, unless they had way bigger problems to start with.
The pool was borderline fine. It was quite swimmable and crystal clear. But I knew it wasn't quite right.

I think some the responses are a bit harsh.

The pool is already starting to hold Chlorine again (after 4-5 days). I think some strong Sun helped. Probably will be back to normal by next week.

I think in the end what has happened in CYA has snuck up a little be higher than I'm used to. Past couple years we took our vacation a week or 2 earlier so I switched to Tabs earlier (which can make a big difference).
I changed test kits and wasn't sure if the old test kit was accurate. So my brain tended "round" towards where I wanted it to be.

My 4 gallons of 12.5% would always take care of any problem. Never had to "Hold it" and was usually well above what was needed, so it indirectly was holding it above the level needed.

Normally I would use Tabs for the rest of the season. This year I switch back to Liquid/Power chlorine after Vacation.

I rarely go into pool stores and when I have I take everything they say with a grain of salt. Nobody forced me to buy anything and the people that installed it are very straight chlorine folks and actually have very few chemical products.

Well I think this "Pool Owner" is done with this site.

 

[BattleOfYakima]

Thanks for the update! I hope you'll consider posting another update when your FC returns to holding normally, and perhaps another update when your daily FC loss returns to 1-4ppm day. These updates would help us to better prepare sodium bromide treatment users for what to expect. As you pointed out, draining and refilling is really something most of us hate to suggest unless financial practicality, time constraints, or chemical necessity demand it. Your continued updates would help other users make educated decisions on whether they want to stick with their water or drain refill. I know this wouldn't benefit you, but would be a great service to the community if you're willing.

I am grateful for your patience as we worked through your thread. It was certainly a challenging one since we see so little sodium bromide posts, given our general suggestion to avoid them. I hope you can forgive any of us (myself included) who were harsh to you and trust that we were trying to provide the best help we could at the time. I know that I am better prepared to advise sodium bromide users now than before your thread, and I thank you for that. If you disagree with anything in my last post, please let me know, as I fully admit to being less than an expert on this subject, and am willing to admit anything I got scientifically wrong so that future readers get the best information possible.

 

[mswlogo]

FYI. Pool has been fantastic since using the Sodium Bromide. Took a good 3 weeks to get back to normal chlorinating but we used the pool just fine and looked fine during that period.

Also went on 10 day vacation. Put 3 gallons in before I left and had a friend put 3 more in the middle of vacation. When I got back the pool was still perfect (Except for pine needles.) with only a trace of chlorine left. So I hit it with 2 more gallons when I got back. Then 1/2 gallon every day.

Couple things I did that I think have helped.

Put chlorine in, in the evening. You get more effective cleaning by putting it in at night because it doesn't burn off at night, where it burns off during the day and by evening it might be low. I think this is hugely important and should have always done it that way.

2nd I would run my 2 speed pump on low 12 hours on during daylight and 12 hours off at night.

I purposely did this to get the pool the warmest. But in peak summer it was getting too warm (above 90) and making it more Algae prone. I have a clear solar cover. Our idea of ideal pool temp is like 84-86 (still refreshing but easy to get in night or day).

My theory was that most of the heat is at the solar cover during the day and if you circulate during the day you'll expose more cooler water from the bottom to the solar cover, the larger the temperature difference the more the more water will change temperature (upward toward the solar cover temp).
And the reverse at night, the solar cover is the coolest at night so you are better off not circulating at night and let it build a insulating "barrier" at the top and preserve the heated water below.
Also if ground is starting to cool it will retain some heat in the "center" of the pool.

I believe this worked. A little too good and adding to Algae issues. And we really don't like the pool that warm. Not refreshing.

But I also read you should break up the circulating cycle in more smaller chunks and not let the water "stand" for 12 hours.

So I switched to 6AM to Noon and 6PM to midnight. This kept the water better circulated overall and the pool ran cooler (which is good and bad).

The pool is definitely cooler (probably 4-5F cooler) with this circulating schedule. But we want to squeak out as much of the season as we can so I went back to 12 hrs during the day and 12hrs off at night to hopefully keep/capture as much heat as I can.
I think with the pool generally cooler at this time of year I won't have a problem with Algae using the poorer circulation schedule. I'll do the 6 on 6 off 6 on 6 off during middle of the season (cooler and better circulated during most algae prone time) and 12 (Day) on 12 off (night) at the start and end of the season (to better capture heat).

At least that's the plan going forward.