Adding chemicals to adjust FC, TA, and CYA

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#1
Hey all. Here are my numbers from my test kit and pool math suggestions:

RESULTS..........GOALS
FC: 0.5.............4
CC: 1
TC: 1.5
CH: 100............450
TA: 100.............80
PH: 7.5.............7.5
CYA: 10............80

We have been slowly draining some water before we get rain since our water is naturally very hard (started at like 600 or maybe more? A few weeks ago it was 500). Then we got 3 days straight of rain, over 5 inches, which resulted in having to drain the pool bc it was almost to the top of the coping. Then a week later, we got over 2 more inches of rain, which is why the CH dropped so much.

I have entered the data into the Pool Math calculator and I also tweaked the goals (within the ideal ranges) to try to get the CSI close to 0. I am posting the goals and suggestions and I just want to make sure I am doing this right as we never got pool school from the PB.

I have been reading all the different posts about lowering TA, raising CYA, and it starts getting confusing trying to take it all in.

We have stabilizer and liquid chlorine and salt (for swg) and I am still looking for the best deal for calcium chloride. I did read to focus on the FC, TA, and CYA first and leave CH for last.

Between going to one page to read about TA and then having to click a link to go to another page about CYA, and going back and forth is just spinning me in a circle. So any help, esp help that is easy to understand is very appreciated. Between my own health, family member's health, my horse's health, having to get an attorney bc PB never finished punch list, and a slew of other things, I am just mentally tapped out right now so laymen terms are even better.

Pool matg says to add 103 oz of 10% chlorine, 1192 oz by weight of calcium chloride, and 215 oz by weight of stabilizer. Current parameters list the CSI at -0.55 and the goals column is listed at -0.16.

Can we add salt AND liquid chlorine since salt level is low too?

Thanks for any help.
 

Richard320

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TFP Expert
Jan 6, 2010
20,322
1
San Dimas, CA (LA County)
#3
Hey all. Here are my numbers from my test kit and pool math suggestions:

RESULTS..........GOALS
FC: 0.5.............4
CC: 1
TC: 1.5
CH: 100............450
TA: 100.............80
PH: 7.5.............7.5
CYA: 10............80
Okay, stop. What does the water look like? Is there any sign of algae? I see 1 CC, extremely low FC, and a lot of surface runoff. So.... if a SLAM is in your future, that will change your target CYA. Which leads to question 2: What did you use to measure 10 CYA?

So let's slow it down. How you answer those questions will change the recommendations.
 

tim5055

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#4
Adding your pool volume is probably good idea.

Yes, you can add salt and liquid chlorine. As a matter of fact, even though you have a SWCG anytime you find yourself drasticly low in FC, use liquid to get to where you should be quickly.

Richard has some good questions, but here are my opinions:

TA is one of those things I don't like seeing people "chase" a perfect number. Ignore it for a while.

If you have hard water I would reduce teh CH goal to about 200 and let topping off water CH water bring that up.

Take CYA up in steps. go to 50, then 60 then 70. I wouldn't go to 80 unless you find your daily FC loss too high. Being in Florida most pools have screen enclosure which cut down on UV rays which cuts down on FC loss.
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#5
Okay, stop. What does the water look like? Is there any sign of algae? I see 1 CC, extremely low FC, and a lot of surface runoff. So.... if a SLAM is in your future, that will change your target CYA. Which leads to question 2: What did you use to measure 10 CYA?

So let's slow it down. How you answer those questions will change the recommendations.
Pool math estimator with measurements put the pool at 23k g.

Water looks great. Crystal clear. The vibrant blue is just a tinyyyy bit not as saturated looking like usual but thats all. No algae or anything. We have a cage and not a whole lot of direct sunlight. I would take a pic but it is dark now. This was taken 3/9/18. It pretty much looks the same but just slightly less saturated blue color.
View attachment 75229

I have the recommended test kit TK 100? Whatever that one is that is suggested here. I did the CYA test with the chemicals in that test kit and then you hold the long, skinny CYA cylinder at waist height and add in the mixed water until you cannot see the black dot at the bottom. Well the entire cylinder was completely full and still could see the dot easily. Looking at how the measurements were on the cylinder and how they are spaced further apart the higher up the water goes, 10 was a guess but maybe it is 0? Because it stops at 20 but you can still add a good bit of water above that to reach the max amount it will hold.

Also, the automation is set to run from 8am to 12pm with the spillway for like an hour I believe? (It was set based on research on TFP) and then 8pm to 12am with no spillway.
 

Attachments

Richard320

LifeTime Supporter
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Jan 6, 2010
20,322
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San Dimas, CA (LA County)
#6
In that case, first thing you do is add some bleach to get it up to 3 or 4. Then measure out enough CYA to get you to 30 and set it in its sock in the skimmer to dissolve.

Then I suppose the Calcium -- be aware it can cause cloudiness, so don't panic. And then salt. Half an hour between everything but the CYA should be plenty, especially if you brush things a little to help stir things up. The CYA doesn't need any wait, since it dissolves slow.

You may need to supplement the SWG with bleach until the CYA is all dissolved.

A day or so after all the CYA has dissolved, you can recheck it and add more if needed.

TA is close enough that I wouldn't waste any time trying to lower it. pH will pop up when the SWG starts working, so you'll be adding acid, and that also lowers TA. No extra work needed.
 

tim5055

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#7
In addition to Richards great advice, I will just say (after seeing the photo) don't tartget 80 CYA at teh end. That screen enclosure is going to block a lot of UV. Once you are ready to raise CYA above 30 only go as high as 50 (in steps) until you see how your SWCG keeps up.
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#8
Thank you all so much!

That all makes sense. When I was reading through all of the info, I was thinking that maybe I should ignore the TA at this point so that is good to know.

So with the CYA, that basically is how much UV can go through the water which in more direct sunlight you want it higher to block more UV bc the UV drops the chlorine?

So add in bleach with pumps on, wait 30 mins, test FC again. Once at 3 or 4, then figure out CYA to get to 30, put in sock into skimmer, no waiting on that bc I remember reading it can take more than 24 hours to dissolve. Should I update the pool math chart with my new numbers after adding the bleach and then go from there for the CH? And keep the CH goal at 450? Right now it reads as current level of 100 so I know that is low. The part about not worrying about the TA makes sense esp bc the FC is so low. Would it be better for the ph to climb to 7.7-7.8? Or is 7.5-7.6 ok? It has consistently 7.5-7.6 since filling in Sept.

Also, since I *can* add salt AND bleach at the same time, is there an advantage to doing both? Or just let things come up and settle and then add actual salt when needed after this?

Measuring the CYA out - is that the chart in pool school that shows how much CYA in relation to FC?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I am starting to actually understand all this I believe. I learn best with discussion vs reading and never got to have that discussion with PB.
 

Oly

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Jun 28, 2017
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0
Fresno, CA
#9
Free chlorine is consumed by sanitizing and oxidizing contaminants and is degraded by sunlight. CYA protects FC from the sun and your enclosure will reduce the amount of sun so 30 should work.

Put your numbers in Pool Math and try some "now" and "target" calculations. Your CYA needed to reach 30 can be estimated in Pool Math, but go slow and in steps, don't make the mistake of adding too much too fast. Your pH range is above 7 and below 8, don't over think it just keep it in the zone.

Confirm your FC after adding and fully mixing the bleach rather than just relying on pool math. The pool math calculation is an estimate and is based several assumptions ie water volume, bleach strength. Confirm your assumptions by testing the results then move forward.

No worries, ask away as there are many fine folk here who are happy to help.
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#11
So I took these earlier. Still looks lovely. Put the pump on high and put in 100 oz of chlorine (pool math said 106 oz). Will go check in 30-45 mins and see what it says.

It looks SOOOOO tempting. And makes me wish we had a pool heater. Lol Water is 68 degrees though.

PicsArt_04-19-03.12.42.jpg
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#13
Ha! Good back ups!! Last year in Oct I think it was, the water was like 76? 78? I can't recal exactly but it didn't SOUND cold. Until you stepped onto the shelf. I got my floating lounger and had my butt and heels in the water and followed the sun until it was behind the trees as it kept me warm. But then I had stand up to get out of the pool. Lawd.... Took my breath away! Lol
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#14
Ok. I just went ahead and ran all of the tests again bc it is helpful for me to see what all the numbers were and then which numbers changed after adding X. Also, I was super skeptical of the CH reading of 100 knowing that since the pool was filled in Sept, we had a major hurricane (ie: lots of rain) and several other heavy rains prior to the 5-7 inches we received in the last 2ish weeks and it barely dropped (I would have to find my paper but I think fill water was a CH of 600 or 650 initially and a month ago it was 500).

So first results are from the full kit and then last 2 are from that little blue box quick test for chlorine and ph.

FC: 4
CC: 1
TC: 5
CH: 400 (makes much more sense!)
TA: 70-80**
CYA: 0? 10? Filled cylinder and could still see dot clearly
PH: 7.8-8 (color was a little darker than 7.8 but not as dark as 8.2)
CL: 5

**Question about these color changes. I want to make sure I am not being too picky about the colors esp bc women do typically see a wider range of colors than men (it is a fact lol). So I am adding the solution to make it turn from green to red. I get to the 6th drop and it turns a pinkish color. Drop 7 is a very saturated what-I-would-call magenta. Drop 8 is an even deeper magenta but adding more drops to compare colors does not change it to what *I* would call red. So should I take the reading when the color turns to a saturated "magenta"? Deeper magenta? Because it just never turns red.

Similar thing happens with the CH? Whichever one that needs to turn to blue from pink. I do see the color change from pink to a "blueish" color though to me, it looks a bit more on the purple side to me. Adding more drops (like 2) does turn it to what *I* would call blue. Again, I know this isn't choosing paint colors or whatever but I just don't want to get false readings bc I am being too critical of the colors.

Moving on, if I understand this correctly, I can now add the stabilizer to get to 30, right? Is guessing the CYA level is 0 a fair guess if that entire tall cylinder is completely full and the black dot is very visible?

I also am a bit confused by the FC / CYA chart. For SWG pools, it lists the CYA at 60, 70, and 80. To get to 30-50, I have to look at the Non SWG chart. Are these listing the ideal ratios?

In pool math, the difference of stabilizer needed changes a decent bit based on a CYA of 0 and 10. With all of my current tests entered, if my CYA is 0, it says to add 92 oz. If my CYA is 10, it says to add 61 oz. Should I err on the side of caution and start with 61 oz first?

Did the CC go up bc chlorine was just added? Will that come down on its own being cycled? And did adding the chlorine cause the ph to rise? We do have muriatic acid on hand if we need to bump the ph down a little.

Oh! Also (sorry!), since the SWG is saying low salt level, will the addition of the liquid chlorine fix that? Or do we need to physically add salt? If actual salt is needed, is this still added directly into the pool and then brushed to help it dissolve? And how do I determine how much to add?

Final thing! The automation says the T cell needs to be cleaned. Is this just opening up the pipe/canister (forget the actual name for it but husband knows where it is), remove the filter, and simply rinse it with the hose?

I think that is all of my questions.... For now. Lol
 

tim5055

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#15
Test instructions:

ANY drops base test should be done by adding drops one at a time until you observe no further color change. Once that's done, you subtract one drop from the total and that amount remaining is your answer.

For example.....

solution remains pink through drops 1 and 8.

solution flashes clear but returns (within 1 second) to slight pink on drop 9

solution appears to clear on drop 10

Drop 11 makes the solution even clearer still

Drop 12 makes absolutely no difference in clarity.....you were done on drop 11 but didn't know that until drop 12.

Subtract drop 12 from your count and your FC is 11 drops = 5.5 ppm

On the FC/CYA chart only the higher numbers are listed because we recomend that a SWCG pool have CYA in those higher ranges. For CYA lower than 50 just use 5%. So, CYA is 30 hen your FC would be 1.5, round up to 2

Always add CYA in "steps". If your ultimate target is 50, then target 30 first. Once youu get a good 30 reading target 40. Once you get a good 40 reading target 50. If at anypoint you overshoot you are still good. CYA is easy to add, difficult to remove.

If your SWCG says low salt, it wants salt.
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#16
Ok that makes sense about the colors. I would keep going to see if I saw a change but didn't know about going until no change and subtract one. Got it!

And thanks for explaining that CYA chart.

I wasnt sure about adding salt since I added the liquid chlorine. I didn't want to add salt and make it go even higher. Will have my husband add salt.

Should I leave the ph alone until I get the salt added and CYA corrected? And then add muriatic acid if needed?
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#17
So after over an hour of searching for the missing info inside the Omnilogic cover (no one filled in how many pounds of salt to adjust by 500ppm and manual doesn't say it either). But I found the Pool Calculator website that tells you about the salt too. So currently the Omnilogic says average salt is 2300 and range is 2700-3400. From reading several threads, I put the goal at 3200 ppm. The calculator said to add 173# of salt.

I did see the bottom part that says how adding chemicals effects the numbers. I plugged in 100 oz of 10% bleach and it said it would raise FC by 3.4 and salt by 5.6. I just do not know how 5.6 equates to the 2300 ppm average the automation shows. Is it literally only 5.6 ppm? 56 ppm?

I decided to be very conservative and only do 100# of the recommended 173# except we had less bags than we thought. We only had 1 40# bag. So I turned the SWG to 0%, turned off the little vacuum thing, and hubby added the salt and brushed it all in. I did read to leave the SWG off for 24 hours and run the pumps during that time so I will check the levels tomorrow am.

Hubby did open the t cell and rinsed it though no debris or anything in there. However twisting the two ends to release it was incredibly difficult even for him and he is very strong. Getting them to tighten was even harder and one side was leaking. He finally got it secured but videos I have watched do not show that to be difficult so going to get something to make it easier to twist the threads.

It is so frustrating to have spent a very large amount of money on this pool and then the PB never finished the punch list, NEVER did pool school, never told us when they stopped servicing the pool, and won't answer any emails, calls, or texts. Ugh. So thankful to have this forum and so many helpful people!
 

tim5055

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#18
Is it literally only 5.6 ppm? 56 ppm?

It is so frustrating to have spent a very large amount of money on this pool and then the PB never finished the punch list, NEVER did pool school, never told us when they stopped servicing the pool, and won't answer any emails, calls, or texts. Ugh. So thankful to have this forum and so many helpful people!
Yes, it's really 5.6ppm

Be thankful the pool builder never did their pool school. Through the year we have seen that most pool builders are excellent at construction and have absolutely no clue about pool chemistry. They "teach" what they were told and it is passed down by word of mouth. No basis in science, they just tell folks tings they were told years ago.

Stick with us, your friends will be amazed at your pool.
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#19
Sadly, they weren't good at construction either. Our build thread is New Build in NE FL. Started Feb 14, 2017. One giant cluster after another. We were patient and understanding and to make up for issues we did get several upgrades at no cost. But literally from the dig day to the fill day, each step had at min 1 thing that went wrong. I don't even want to think about how much of a bigger mess this would have been if I wasn't home every day. And now we have an attorney involved... Oy!

Thanks for answering about the 5.6. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Will have hubby pick up more salt tomorrow. Once that is corrected, should just need a little stabilizer and be in TFP top shape! Until it rains again Monday! :lol: Thank you again for all of your help!
 

ShantellyLace

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2017
593
0
St Augustine, FL
#20
Ran numbers this afternoon. Waiting on hubby to get a break from work so he can get salt.

FC 3.5
CC 0
CH 375
TA 80
CYA 0?
CL 3
PH 7.8

The automation shows the salt at 2300 (not surprising bc we only added in 40#).

For the stabilizer, I have read some people saying to use a sock, some used panty hose, etc. Some say to put it in the skimmer basket and others in front of a return (the return and skimmer are like 4 or 5 feet apart). Which is best to do?