Add returns/intakes during remodel?

I considered converting my main drain to a return for a little bit, but a bunch of reasons kept me from doing so and I'm glad I did. It's a convenient way to drain the water that you'll have to figure out one way or another otherwise. Just pushing water through a hole back into the pool isn't a good return. I used to just think holes==returns==good circulation but it's more complicated than that.

My pool is around 40 years old. The builder had an excellent reputation from what I hear but he's dead now and I don't know if anyone maintained his business or if they'd be as good as he was reported to be. I will say this: I have only one main return and one little return in a kidney alcove. I get fantastic circulation and never get debris buildup. When I dug the pipes up to redo a bunch of stuff at the pad, some of the lines confused me with their sizing and placement but the things is that it works and works well. A main drain converted into a return is going to be pushing against a *lot* of water and isn't going to be directed anywhere but in some diffused area around the bottom of the pool. To the extent that it would do anything it would likely do just as much going up as down (meaning, if it's actually going to increase the circulation by directing water *into* the pool, it should do just as well directing water *out of* the pool. That said, the literature I read indicated main drains don't do much by way of circulation.

What they do do, however, is allow you to drain water below the skimmer and if your water falls below the skimmer your pump won't burn out. In any case, even before I fixed up so much of what was wrong with my pool the shallow end (which doesn't have any returns closer than 35-40 feet) sparkled like diamonds so I don't think that returns have much to do with the sparkling of my water.

I have young children and I really went back and forth on the danger of my main drain under 9 feet of water. Based on what I know about how law is created, moral panics, and really juicy examples that tend to capture the public's and lawmakers' attention I concluded that I'm probably just fine with my main drain. I do know that one kid was killed by a drain but I haven't researched it out much beyond that to learn how many others were killed but it is the nature of law and public opinion that sometimes a danger can seem very real and more pressing than statical data would conclude.
 
An approved cover can make a single drain “safer,” but that’s not as safe as two drains. Nothing is safer than no drains! If you’re going to leave a drain, then do it right and make it as safe as possible. There are a couple of solutions for that I can point you to. Otherwise, follow your instinct about that old copper and delete the drain. Any sort of vacuum, even a robot, will circulate the bottom.

My new pebble is pretty much grey. You can see it on my top step. But the water turns it an amazing shade of dark turquoise. Maybe it’ll fade, I guess I’ll find out. But I love the color now. It’s 6 months old and is starting to mottle a bit. I’ve heard that is normal for darker colors. My previous plaster did that, too. It was 6 years old and had the same amazing color. I don’t mind the mottling. I had my PB match the old color, Tahoe Blue, and then make it a tad darker. I never saw the old plaster when it was new, so I don’t know if it was faded or if it was just covered with calcium. TFPC will keep my new pebble calcium free. Expect that your color will shift, in some way. I don’t think there is any dark pool surface that retains its original color indefinitely... Probably only a white plaster can do that, but I don’t like a light-colored pool, so I’m going to accept whatever my color ends up doing, and enjoy it now.
 
Bizzle makes an excellent case for a robot. They have many advantages over suction side cleaners. Brushing, and cleaning tile, very cool. I don’t like swimming around my hose, for sure. I take mine out when guests are over. Based on what I’ve read about their weight, I’d guess a robot is slightly harder to remove from a pool. My cleaner is pretty light. The only thing I’d rebut, though, is the cable vs hose. The hose stays in the pool, the cord runs out and across the deck. As much as I don’t like my hose, I’d like a cable running across my deck even less...

When they come out with a robot that can crawl out of the pool and find its charging garage hidden under a bush, I’m in! ;)
 
My M500 also helps with circulation.

A big concern of mine -- thank you for this info!

One important point to note about a suction cleaner is that it cleans through your large filter as compared to a robot with its own filtration system. That's one less thing to maintain as frequently

Had not thought about this. Really good point, and well-taken (I say, while upgrading to a SWCG... the allure of less maintenance is like a siren song).

The vacs seem to always be left in the pools, even during parties. Maybe they're burdensome to store or it's just laziness, but it seems near universal. I don't like the way they look in the pool and I don't enjoy swimming around them like a big obstacle course.

Yes, yes, yes. Wow. These are all fantastic points, and ones that hit home with me. Maybe I'll start reading up for an investment next year. Thank you for sharing!

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When they come out with a robot that can crawl out of the pool and find its charging garage hidden under a bush, I’m in! ;)

Poomba? :cool:
 
I’m going to accept whatever my color ends up doing, and enjoy it now.

I was lamenting to my PB's wife/assistant that finish color was such a big decision, and she replied, "It's really not. You're not going to have all the other colors to compare it to once it's in your backyard. It will just be what it is, and you will love it."

The interwebs have witnessed scattered regret, I thought... but part of me wanted to fully embrace her perspective!
 
One “correction,” and mind you I’ve never had a robot. True, a vac puts dirt into the main filter, and the bigger chunks into the pumps basket. And a robot collects everything in its own filter. But it’s the same amount of gunk. So it’s clean the main filter, a big job for sure, every once in a while, or pull the robot out of the pool and clean its much, much smaller filter quite often. See? Which is actually less convenient? All winter long, my vac has kept my pool clean, and my filter pressure hasn’t budged. And I haven’t had to think about my vac for all that time. I could leave my pool for weeks and not have to arrange for someone to deal with my vac. How long can a robot service a pool without any attention? I expect at this rate I might not have to deal with my filter more than once a year. Which I’d have to do anyway, vac or no. Robots have many advantages over vacs, but I don’t think dealing with the collected debris is one of them. Not for me and my pool, anyway...
 
I was lamenting to my PB's wife/assistant that finish color was such a big decision, and she replied, "It's really not. You're not going to have all the other colors to compare it to once it's in your backyard. It will just be what it is, and you will love it."

The interwebs have witnessed scattered regret, I thought... but part of me wanted to fully embrace her perspective!

I wrote about color selection at great length elsewhere. Short version: There are so many factors that affect your pool’s color, and your brain’s perception of it: sky, trees, plants, house, fence, deck, time of day, seasons, weather, sun angle, pool location and orientation, depth, material, age, etc, that it will not only be constantly changing, and evolving, but it might not ever look like what you thought you wanted! Just get yourself in the ballpark, then enjoy the show! The more you strive for the perfect color, the bigger your disappointment will be... Your PB’s wife is correct...
 
It's true that there's no drain safer than no drain :). I didn't intend to suggest that there was no danger from (any) drains, but I do think one should scrutinize the probability of potential dangers and weigh them against other concerns/realities. They do have their uses.

The M500 is somewhere between 30 and 50 pounds from the feel of it. It's published, and I looked it up at one time, but I don't remember the exact weight. *But* you only experience the weight when it's going in or out of the water--and it can be easily rolled into and out of the water. When it's in the water it's weightless. It's buoyant and when you want to drag it across the pool from one side to the other, the cord's drag feels like a loose rope...it's effortless.

Some robots can be left in a pool to clean according to a scheduled program. My M500 does and I control it with my phone (and it comes with a standard wireless interface, too).
 
Do you have the one you can drive? As silly as that sounds, I think that would be a very handy/useful feature. There’s always that one leaf that falls in right after vacuum time! And with TFP water, it’s all “Look at me!”

For me, going “drainless” wasn’t just about safety. My drains were never even engaged. My foot would always find one. They were hanging up my cleaner, big time. Brushing around them was a hassle, and, to me, they looked awful, too. I hadn’t considered the leak potential when I decided to delete mine, but that’s a bonus reason. And because mine were plumbed to the skimmer, they couldn’t be used to drain. So getting rid of them was right for me and my pool.
 
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