A&A In floor cleaning system - Does anybody here pressure test their cleaning heads?

[bertschb]

I'm a new pool owner and I'd like to set my Pentair IntelliFlo VS pump to the lowest RPM needed to activate my A&A infloor cleaning heads. To do that, I was planning on buying the A&A pressure system test kit (part number 548295). It only costs a little over $100. You set the pump rpm to the lowest setting that will give you 10-11psi at the cleaning heads. The test kit looks really easy to use. Does anybody else have this test kit or do folks just crank the pump up to 3,000+ rpm and let-er rip?

 

[TampaKathy]

I haven't used the test kit...I'm trying to understand what it does that the gauge on your in-floor cleaning system doesn't do...I looked at a prior post of yours...looks like there's a gauge right before the in-floor system. I hadn't really paid attention to mine yet but my PB set it at 3000 rpm which I just checked and that gives me 15 psi so maybe I can lower mine.

 

[bertschb]

Oh, I forgot about that pressure gauge right before the in-floor cleaning system manifold on my pool. I have no idea what kind of pressure to expect there nor how it compares to the pressure at the cleaning heads.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you have the time and some insomnia that needs to be cured, this thread might be interesting to you -

Optimize Your In-Floor Cleaning Effectiveness and Efficiency

--------------------------- Original Claim - see PRELUDE below it OK, I have made some quick edits to this thread after laying awake all night and realizing that I have wasted $1000s (probably $5K-$7K) over the past 25 years by not adjusting one valve on my system. More edits and comments are...

www.troublefreepool.com

User @jonpcar did a fairly extensive analysis of his IFC to find the optimal pump settings. I'm not suggesting you do the same, but it would appear that his IFC system wasn't that far off in RPM's from where he normally kept it to where the most energy efficient point was. Most manufacturers suggest that the pressure at your distribution valve should be anywhere from 14-20psi for proper operation of the IFC. I suspect you probably won't be able to get good cleaning below 2500RPM but that's certainly better than running the pump at full-speed.

While the pressure test kit from A&A is interesting, I'm not sure it's all that helpful. Pressure at any given head is going to be a function of the water flow and how much hydraulic loss there is in the line running to that head. While obtaining that lowest possible pressure at the head might save you energy, it may lead to the objective conclusion that the system is not keeping your pool "clean" since everyone has a different subjective opinion of what "clean" is. As the above thread illustrates, the most energy efficient operating point in the system may not yield the result you like.

I would suggest simply eyeballing it and adjusting the pump's cleaning speed down periodically until you reach a point where you think the system is just not giving you the visual cleanliness you like and then bump the speed back up. Slower for sure but it will save you some money wasted on a pressure gauge you may only ever use once ...

 

[bertschb]

Thank you for sharing that thread Matt. It took a looooooong time to read but there was some helpful information there. My goal isn't really about saving money but rather not wasting money. IOW, I will run my pump at whatever speed I need to keep my pool clean. But, if I can keep it clean using a pump speed of 2,500rpm and it's currently set at 3,400rpm, I will lower the speed. I'm guessing the PB set the pump to the max rpm to get max flow from the heads but who knows???? I'll find out in a couple days!

Being new to pools I'm surprised at the opposition here at TFP to in floor cleaning systems. My brother had IFCS installed in both of his last two pool builds and he swears by them. I've never owned a pool but the pool at the house we're buying is VERY clean so the IFCS in our pool seems to work very well. I'm a SCUBA diver and I'm looking forward this summer to hanging out on the bottom and watching how the heads work while cleaning.

 

[proavia]

If you have the time and some insomnia that needs to be cured, this thread might be interesting to you -

Optimize Your In-Floor Cleaning Effectiveness and Efficiency

--------------------------- Original Claim - see PRELUDE below it OK, I have made some quick edits to this thread after laying awake all night and realizing that I have wasted $1000s (probably $5K-$7K) over the past 25 years by not adjusting one valve on my system. More edits and comments are...

www.troublefreepool.com

User @jonpcar did a fairly extensive analysis of his IFC to find the optimal pump settings. I'm not suggesting you do the same, but it would appear that his IFC system wasn't that far off in RPM's from where he normally kept it to where the most energy efficient point was. Most manufacturers suggest that the pressure at your distribution valve should be anywhere from 14-20psi for proper operation of the IFC. I suspect you probably won't be able to get good cleaning below 2500RPM but that's certainly better than running the pump at full-speed.

While the pressure test kit from A&A is interesting, I'm not sure it's all that helpful. Pressure at any given head is going to be a function of the water flow and how much hydraulic loss there is in the line running to that head. While obtaining that lowest possible pressure at the head might save you energy, it may lead to the objective conclusion that the system is not keeping your pool "clean" since everyone has a different subjective opinion of what "clean" is. As the above thread illustrates, the most energy efficient operating point in the system may not yield the result you like.

I would suggest simply eyeballing it and adjusting the pump's cleaning speed down periodically until you reach a point where you think the system is just not giving you the visual cleanliness you like and then bump the speed back up. Slower for sure but it will save you some money wasted on a pressure gauge you may only ever use once ...

I agree with Matt - @JoyfulNoise - especially his last paragraph. For my pool, I have found 2900rpm for the infloor works for me. Couple that with two 2 hours cycles at that rpm (AM and PM) and my pool stays clean. The rest of my run time is at 1100rpm - and the infloor doesn't produce enough pressure/flow at 1100rpm to actually clean, but does help with circulation.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Brian,

I am not a fan of IFCS and never recommend installing one..

That said, if the pool is an existing pool, with an IFCS, it would not keep me from buying the house.

My main objection to an IFCS is that it makes simple pool plumbing much more complex. Not a major issue until a repair needs to be done. Pools with IFCS systems often have no side-wall pool returns. This means that all the return water comes through the floor returns. Some installs work well, but others do not, and you can't know that for sure until the pool is full of water and working. And finally, in my opinion, IFCS systems have been made obsolete with low voltage robots.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[bertschb]

Even though I'm new here and new to pools, I can see already that robot vs IFCS is a Ford/Chevy topic so I'll stay out of it!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Even though I'm new here and new to pools, I can see already that robot vs IFCS is a Ford/Chevy topic so I'll stay out of it!

Brian,

I don't think you should stay out of it.. the IFCS side needs all the help they can get...

Seriously, after you have run your pool for a few months please let us know what you think about how your IFCS is working.

My opinion is mine, and your opinion is yours, they are both equally valid in my mind.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I tend to agree with @Jimrahbe on this one - I would never recommend an IFC to anyone building a pool but, if a pool has an IFC, then it's not a deal breaker. As Jim stated, IFC's way over-complicate the pool plumbing and, if a pool is built without wall returns and relies solely on IFC's, then that is just a very poor design.

Like you, I live in AZ and IFC's are very popular because pool builders like to push the notion that the desert is dusty and IFC's are the perfect way to clean a dusty pool. They also like to point out that you get better heat and chemical distribution using an IFC. I disagree with those points but many people believe in them so I try not to argue about it. The one HUGE down side to IFC's is that a pool built with them has a lot of PVC running inside the gunite shell. Structural concrete "best practices" calls for as little penetration and foreign object embedment as possible in a load-bearing concrete structure. PVC pipe buried inside the gunite shell is impossible to repair if something goes wrong and the volume it takes up can lead to structural weak points and voids if the shotcrete crew is not careful. It is not at all unusual to find pools with IFC's that are abandoned (typically sealed off with hydraulic cement) because they began to leak. Finally cost is a big issue - IFC's can add several thousand dollars to the cost of a pool build as compared to a modern robot cleaner which cost a lot less ($600-$1200). My robot runs every few days and keeps the pool exceptionally clean.

I don't plan on ever building a pool again and this will likely be the last pool I ever own, but should the fates curse me with another job in recreational water management, an IFC would definitely not be on my "must have" list ...

 

[Reesearnold]

I'm a new pool owner and I'd like to set my Pentair IntelliFlo VS pump to the lowest RPM needed to activate my A&A infloor cleaning heads. To do that, I was planning on buying the A&A pressure system test kit (part number 548295). It only costs a little over $100. You set the pump rpm to the lowest setting that will give you 10-11psi at the cleaning heads. The test kit looks really easy to use. Does anybody else have this test kit or do folks just crank the pump up to 3,000+ rpm and let-er rip?

Crank it up to 3450 let her rip for three hours. And then scheduled the pump to ramp down after the three hours to 2000 RPMs and then down to 700 through the night. Or off through the night.
If you have a cartridge filter you’re gonna end up with some dirt on the cartridges and all of your testing and calibrating Will go out the window because none of them are going to be getting enough pressure. Unless your filter stays clean 100% of the time. As a pool guy I can only clean my filters twice a year.

 

[Reesearnold]

Oh, I forgot about that pressure gauge right before the in-floor cleaning system manifold on my pool. I have no idea what kind of pressure to expect there nor how it compares to the pressure at the cleaning heads.

At least 20 psi for effective pressure in each zone giver take a little

 

[Reesearnold]

I haven't used the test kit...I'm trying to understand what it does that the gauge on your in-floor cleaning system doesn't do...I looked at a prior post of yours...looks like there's a gauge right before the in-floor system. I hadn't really paid attention to mine yet but my PB set it at 3000 rpm which I just checked and that gives me 15 psi so maybe I can lower mine.

You need at least 20 psi giver take a little or the pressure might not be enough to clean the pool. If the heads don’t rise up completely then they’re not gonna rotate

 

[Reesearnold]

Brian,

I am not a fan of IFCS and never recommend installing one..

That said, if the pool is an existing pool, with an IFCS, it would not keep me from buying the house.

My main objection to an IFCS is that it makes simple pool plumbing much more complex. Not a major issue until a repair needs to be done. Pools with IFCS systems often have no side-wall pool returns. This means that all the return water comes through the floor returns. Some installs work well, but others do not, and you can't know that for sure until the pool is full of water and working. And finally, in my opinion, IFCS systems have been made obsolete with low voltage robots.

Thanks,

Jim R.

In floor cleaning is definitely not obsolete with robots. And you can guarantee that they work properly by sending the pool plans to the manufacture and waiting for the specs to come back and do the plumbing according to the manufacture specs and you’ll be guaranteed that you’re in floor cleaning system works properly. There are several pools that do not work properly and that’s because they don’t get the specs from the manufacture and they wing it and they never work right. Real expensive piece of Crud as what happens. Or half Rear one. Lol
No cords to trip over and they are much less maintenance than those robots. I’m constantly having to replace parts to keep those things working. My floor cleaning systems I only have to do some replacing of the gears every five years or so and that’s it.

 

[Reesearnold]

I tend to agree with @Jimrahbe on this one - I would never recommend an IFC to anyone building a pool but, if a pool has an IFC, then it's not a deal breaker. As Jim stated, IFC's way over-complicate the pool plumbing and, if a pool is built without wall returns and relies solely on IFC's, then that is just a very poor design.

Like you, I live in AZ and IFC's are very popular because pool builders like to push the notion that the desert is dusty and IFC's are the perfect way to clean a dusty pool. They also like to point out that you get better heat and chemical distribution using an IFC. I disagree with those points but many people believe in them so I try not to argue about it. The one HUGE down side to IFC's is that a pool built with them has a lot of PVC running inside the gunite shell. Structural concrete "best practices" calls for as little penetration and foreign object embedment as possible in a load-bearing concrete structure. PVC pipe buried inside the gunite shell is impossible to repair if something goes wrong and the volume it takes up can lead to structural weak points and voids if the shotcrete crew is not careful. It is not at all unusual to find pools with IFC's that are abandoned (typically sealed off with hydraulic cement) because they began to leak. Finally cost is a big issue - IFC's can add several thousand dollars to the cost of a pool build as compared to a modern robot cleaner which cost a lot less ($600-$1200). My robot runs every few days and keeps the pool exceptionally clean.

I don't plan on ever building a pool again and this will likely be the last pool I ever own, but should the fates curse me with another job in recreational water management, an IFC would definitely not be on my "must have" list ...

The in floor cleaning definitely does not compromise the integrity of the shell. If the pool is built properly and the builder uses the specs from the manufacturer and follows the plumbing guidelines or plans. It’ll function properly and the plumbing is never penetrated through the shell. Because the shell is poured after all the plumbing is in place. It’s a big no-no to go drilling into the shell after it’s already poured for sure.
when they’re done right the floor system will work wonderfully for 30 years if the pool is cared for properly. And the floor system gears get replaced every 5 to 7 years. They could last longer if the pump is set to turn off at night. And the really good designs within floor cleaning do you have wall returns only there were returns in the walls below the water down the wall towards the sooner of the pool to ultimately get the dirt to go to the filter. They are the only cleaning systems that can keep a pool looking beautiful every day of the week.

 

[proavia]

IFCS only need enough pump RPM to clean the pool. Many times that isn't full blast at 3450 RPM.

Most A&A infloor doesn't have a separate pressure gauge at the water valve like some other systems. And many times the filter pressure won't be up to 20psi - especially with a clean filter. My filter presure is 17psi clean at 3450rpm. I run my infloor in two 2 hour schedules (morning and evening) at 2900rpm (about 14-15 psi). That provides good cleaning. The rest of the time, when pump is on, it runs at 1100rpm - which gives descent skimming. Actually, I can run the two 2 hour blocks at 2900rpm and run 1100rpm the other 20 hours and it costs me less than $20/month to run the pump.

On an up note, if you are the original owner of an A&A infloor system, you get a lifetime warranty on any moving parts of the system.... gearset, popups, etc. That being said (and as a 20+ year IFCS owner), I would NOT put one in a new build. Not worth the extra complexity (especially if something goes wrong) or extra electrical cost (needing to run pump at higher rpms).

TFP suggests cleaning the filter when the pressure increases 25% over clean pressure - not twice a year or when the pressure rises by 10psi.