Concrete pool up north

budster said:
I am so impressed with your work!

One additional word on the heating; the heat loss from the surface will be your enemy in cold temps. While we all struggle with the BTU/water volume sizing formulas, many of the US manufacturers of heat pumps and heaters giver greater weight to the surface area of the pool in calculating product requirements (and, of course, desired heat gain per hour), because that is where the heat loss happens.

I am not a fan of solar blankets because of asthetics, but for practicality, you might consider same. :-D

Hi Budster and thank for the kind words :)
I hope I don't have to mount solar blankets to my system in order to reach desireable temperature. When I looked into which poolheater i need. I did that with what I have seen others use in sweden in mind. I took one size bigger than the manufactor recommended.
 
I have been lazy with the camera and haven't any pics on the finished frame work to show. I will take a few pictures this week!

I have now to decide whether to wait for warmer weather before pouring the concrete or take a chance that the forecast will tell thruth about the temperature and finish the job.
I have done as many reinforcements on the frame as possible and I don't think it can go wrong. But it's a moment of thruth to actually see if it's good enough. If not!!! Is it nothing to do but bury everything underneath soil again :?
 
Henry - as diligent as you've been every step of the way, if you have to "bury everything underneath soil again" I may as well do the same.

I can't wait to see your finished project - it is going to be an incredibly well thought out, solidly built pool ... something you can take pride in for many years to come.
 
Thanks a lot Eggman, such inspiringly words means very much to me :)
I hope you don't have to high excpectations on my project. I know and have accepted that I can't compete with anything you guys builds over here. But I'm gonna copy as much as I can from the way you build your steps/tanning ledges for example :goodjob:
The problem is! This project is gonna take it's time since I'm building everything myself. So you gonna have to hang in here if you gonna see the finished result :)

I'm learing new things everytime I'm logging in on this site just by looking at your projects. I have just persuaded my wife into building an outdoor sort of kitchen. I saw someones "green egg! and I just fell in love with it's shapes. A "must have" item!
Also the way you do your decking is very inspiringly and something to think of.

But as I said I can never compete with your beauty Eggman :-D

Regards Mats
 
Here are a few pictures as promised!
If I take to much bandwidth in claim by posting many pics, please tell me! I can delete them meanwhile this project proceeds.

It's to cold for me to pour the concrete at the moment. Besides from a few small improvements on the frame that I'm plan to do tomorrow I'm ready to go. Hoping for a steady low pressure weather so the pemperature will rise a few degrees.

Regards
[attachment=2:e2jr1phh]frameworkIMG_4569.gif[/attachment:e2jr1phh]
[attachment=1:e2jr1phh]frameworkIMG_4570.gif[/attachment:e2jr1phh]
[attachment=0:e2jr1phh]frameworkIMG_4571.gif[/attachment:e2jr1phh]
 

Attachments

  • frameworkIMG_4569.gif
    frameworkIMG_4569.gif
    242.9 KB · Views: 1,086
  • frameworkIMG_4570.gif
    frameworkIMG_4570.gif
    244.1 KB · Views: 1,084
  • frameworkIMG_4571.gif
    frameworkIMG_4571.gif
    246.3 KB · Views: 1,090
I decided that I need to get things going and that I can't wait for the middling temperature to reach 5-6 degrees. That can take month's from now.
So I have built a simple roof top over the frame. This so I can preheat the form before pouring and also 24-48h after. Depending what temperature it is. Concrete with a standard portland cement w/o additives need approx 5 degrees C to get the chemical reaction to start. After that, the reaction itself keep the process as warm as it need to be and further additional heating won't be necessary.
I'm gonna let the roof top stay on through the whole building process. It can be a good thing to be able to work inside the pool when it's raining, especially when it comes to the paint job. The construction is not the most stable I have done so I have to pray for the thunder and the rain to quietly passing by(GNR) :blah:
Right know it's a little colder than normal. So I will wait for the temperature to rise a few degrees before I call the concrete company.

I'll keep you posted

[attachment=0:1bs8b0d3]roof topIMG_3118.gif[/attachment:1bs8b0d3]
 

Attachments

  • roof topIMG_3118.gif
    roof topIMG_3118.gif
    204 KB · Views: 1,024

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
A happy and very relieved Henry Porter speaking :-D
Poured the concrete today and everything went well. We filled the form in three laps and I vibrated the whole thing myself. A good two hours took it before the form was filled.
A long day has come to an end and I will sleep very well tonight thats for sure 8). It feels so good that I no longer have to worry about if the concrete get enough time to rest before painting.
[attachment=2:3sn15rdj]MoldingIMG_4598.gif[/attachment:3sn15rdj]
[attachment=1:3sn15rdj]MoldingIMG_4599.gif[/attachment:3sn15rdj]
[attachment=0:3sn15rdj]MoldingIMG_4597.gif[/attachment:3sn15rdj]
 

Attachments

  • MoldingIMG_4598.gif
    MoldingIMG_4598.gif
    221.4 KB · Views: 880
  • MoldingIMG_4599.gif
    MoldingIMG_4599.gif
    230.8 KB · Views: 882
  • MoldingIMG_4597.gif
    MoldingIMG_4597.gif
    86.1 KB · Views: 878
I see that you have a DE filter. What made you to choose that type of filter?
The level of filtration and the fact that my parents have had DE on their old style 20'x40' x 9.5' deep pool for over 35 years ... I've had both a cartridge and sand filter previously.

I oversized my filter to minimize the amount of backwashing / cleaning required.

Bottom line, I guess, is that oversizing a DE filter requires less frequent maintenance as well as doing a better job of filtering ... and I'm basically lazy.
 
I have looked at a DE filter for our situation but we have now decided to go with a cartridge filter. The reason for that is the location of the filter(underground). Imo it would cause troubles with backwashing with that placing. So that was what weigh over to the cartridge for us.
Which brand is still open for discussion. If I choose the intellflo pump I may go with Pentairs filter aswell. Otherwise the name Hayward leave a good taste in my mouth, but I guess that depends on that was the only brand name I've heard of before I started to build.
If someone have something to say about the different brands please chime in!

I still run the heaters at night and will do so to Monday. After that the frame will stand until next weekend when I plan to tear them off.
It will be interesting to see how it turned out:)
So this weekend is set to buy furnitures, that most certainly will bring me a happy wife :mrgreen:
 
Can you get all of the brands over there that we can in the States? I think I remember you mentioning something about that in another post. Is is feasible for you to have a seller in the U.S. ship equipment over there?

I can't wait to see how the concrete turns out when you take the forms off. Methods over there are definitely different than here, but your design looks VERY sturdy.

Best of Luck,
Adam
 
Very interesting project, looks like you are doing a great job on it so far. I have a secondary interest since I heat our house with a wood stove, backed up by a natural gas HVAC system.

Currently we don't have any kind of heat on our pool, but I've been thinking about doing a solar system on the roof of the house to give us winter heat and domestic hot water year round - in my more wild fantasies adding a gasification wood boiler (which it sounds like is what you have) to supplement the solar. I wouldn't think of heating the pool with the wood boiler, but if we do a solar setup big enough to give us useful heat in the winter, we'd have lots of excess capacity that I could dump into the pool the rest of the year - have you thought of doing anything with solar? I know my feeling about other powered heaters is that it would be hard to justify the cost to run them (either as needing to make split wood, or paying for electricity / gas for a heater)

Definitely off topic, but what sort of heat distribution do you use in your house? I've been thinking in terms of doing in-floor radiant. Do you use any kind of thermal storage on your wood boiler? That is a very popular approach here in the US, lots of people talk about doing that over on Hearth.com where I spend a lot of time. (We probably shouldn't talk wood heat here, but if you felt like swapping experience with your wood boiler over there, I'm sure you'd be welcome - it seems that the EU is somewhat ahead of us technology wise in that area)

Gooserider
 
Hi Adam and thanks for your kind words :)
I'm a frequent shopper on the net and use to import items from the US. Unfortunately have our currency droped quite a bit the last 6 months.
And if that´s not enough our custom nowadays never miss to charge me with tax wich usually is around 30% of the total cost (including handling and shipping). So it's not feasiable anylonger from a economic perspective, not when our currency is as low as it is. Not long ago (seems like few months only) I payed like 5 swedish krona for a dollar and now I have to pay over 9 krona for the same dollar :evil:
So if It possible to find a reseller here it's to prefer.
Thanks to the tremendous mas985 8) who gave me a link to a european reseller of pentairs products in another thread, I might be able to get both the intellflo pump and pentairs cartridge filter here. It's a bit to drive, but I will go there in business in a week so. I will have a chance to look up the pump and filter then.
To answer your question Adam! Even if the number of resellers of pool supplys more or less has exploded the last 2-3 years, are we still way after you guys. So I can't get all brands that you can choose from.

Hi Gooserider!
I have actually droped the plan to heat the pool with our wood pan. I have bought a heatpump for the purpose since I saw many advantages with a pump over the wood pan. To be able to wake up to a warm pool and take a morning swim without the hassel and wait-time for the woodpan to do it's job, is something I value. Since the heatpump runs when the temperature is high outdoors the effect it produces is also high. On my pump I get 5kw from 1kw in.
I don't know if it's hold any thruth but on a swedish poolforum where I participate every now and then is a common opinion that solar panels (the simple kind where you just pump in the pool water and let the sun do the job) is more or less waste of money. Since they only work when the sun is shining when many people prefer a little lower temperature in the pool in contrary when it's hot outside when the solarpanels gives more heat then you may want. That type of system also need a controlsystem that many seems to forget/skip due to the extra cost. So I have never really taken solarpanels in consideration for our situation. But again I really don't know much about it.

I've built a extra part of our house a couple years ago and there I molded in water hoses in the ground so I don't need any radiators in that part of the house. Radiators is what we have in the rest of the house for heating. floor heating works very well if you have enough isolation underneath the concrete. 300mm of celluar plastic is what we recommend over here if it should be worth while. But still if you have that amount of isolation you have to decrease the temperature 1-2 degrees if you gonna save energi on it. Since you experience a room with a heated floor warmer compared to a room with radiators it's possible to do so. What talks against it is a study I've read(and also from my own experience) that once you get use to a warm floor you a more willing to keep the heat on for longer in the spring and for that reason the total economy becomes negative. But it feels good though :-D

My heat pan is connected to a accumulation tank of 2400litre water, with a heat exchanger where tapwater is running mounted in. The water in the tank is a closed system and it's water runs in our radiators and in the floor. It takes 1,5 loads of wood to heat the accumulation tank from 35 degrees C to 90 degrees. That amount of water usually last 2 days in the winter and 6 days in the summertime when we only use it for tapwater.

Regards Mats
 
Re: solar heating

Great thread, and amazing pool. Thanks for documenting it for us all to share.

As lover of both wood heat ( i use a tarm multifuel gassification boiler and water tank with hydronic system at my 10 acre farm home in Indiana) and a 4 time pool owner you are smart to have moved off that track for pool heating.

Almost everyone underestimates just how many btu's you have t throw into a pool to make it livable including me on all 3 previous times Ive owned pools. Id say my current investment in solar panels is the single best one Ive made in my 20 years of pool ownership.

As a complete stand alone only- I wouldn't recommend it, but as an assist to a heat pump, gas, or even woodheat, the effect it will have on your enjoyment level will be astonishing.

The ability to throw at minimum several hundreds of thousands of btu's per day (at times a million+ ) for the cost of running the pump completely changes the ownership and usability factor of any pool. I lose at least 4 degrees per night of heat even in the summer so in a 20K gallon pool that's 667K btu of heat loss. I have to add that amount back in per day to break even on just to keep the pool at set temp. And thats in southern California! In Sweden you'll likely lose more per night.

Remember that amount has to be delivered to the water and not a theoretical # like a gas heater or heat pumps rating that you need to take "about" 20% of efficiency of the top off.

So if you think about this this way a heat pump that's good for 100K btus can deliver about 80K to the water per hour has to run about 8 hours to get back to where I was the night before BEFORE I actually make the pool any warmer. As a heat sustaining device a heat pump is GREAT, but you will be stuck running your pumps a lot, if you "boost it" by preheating water from panels going into it youll get a lot more out of it during the day and and be able to cut power usage back to nighttime only or mostly and give your wallet and equipment a break.

Its also pretty amazing how well solar performs on partially cloudy and cloudy days- friends are amazed when I show them the jandy remote showing the solar tap open on an overcast day.

Ill personally never be without solar again-the payback in terms of extended season, and getting more out of the gas heater I have is well within 2 years or even 1.

Thanks again for the picts and amazing quality of your work, and documentation of it.

"Uncle Dave"
 
Hi Uncle Dave!
I'm glad you have found a system that works for your pool.
I never meant to putting down solar panels, I have way to little knowledge for doing so. I'm not speaking from own experience just reproduces others voices I've heard on the subject. I guess solarpanels are more effecient in your weather conditions if you compare it to my situation. I'm not sure if your's system are are more sofisticated than the system I'm talking about. I have looked in to vacuum solar panels very briefly but to install something like that is more pricey than to buy a heatpump. So for the time being I will satisfy with my heatpump. If I see that my heatpump doesen't work good enough can I complete with panels later.
I estimate my pools energy consumption to approx 80kw/day. With my heatpump I would have to put in 20% of that power to the pump. If this calculation is right depends on many factors of course, like how persistant I'm in putting on the poolcover when the pool is not in use, temperature of the water of course, isolation of the pool and weather conditions. I don't think I'm far from the thruth though.

I'm gonna buy the electrical cables that will run from the house to the pool room tomorrow 5X6mm2, and also the cables from pool room to the lamps. 2X12mm2.
Those are the only two cables that I can't run with regular 1,5mm2 cables. Things are coming together little by little :-D
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.