Need help bringing an old pool back to life

[pooldv]

I agree with everything D.D. says. We have Pentair VS-3hp, IC40, 540 cartridge filter and solartouch solar controller. Everything works great. 20k gallon pool. IC40 runs at 20% or 40%. Our pump has run 24x7 for a couple of years. We have tons of trees and prefer to have skimmers going all the time. We run it at 1100 rpm @125w and it ramps up to 1900 for solar when needed. Love the VS pump and would also buy another one without hesitation. It costs less than $10/MO to run my pump 24x7.

 

[slythic]

The IC 40 is fine. I run it on 60% for about 1 1/2 hours at 3 different times of day to maintain FC of 5-7. If there is anything I dont like about it, it's that there isn't a control panel in a real sense. There is no alpha-numeric display. Just red lights and green lights. (alpha numeric is available with automation system). The controls are all built into the cell itself, so when the time comes to replace it, will be more expensive than other brands. (todays price is about 600 online for a cell)
You cannot program it to turn on and off. There is no on/off button. You need a timer or automation system to turn it off when not in use, or unplug the power cord. (I installed a inexpensive intermatic timer because I squeak when I walk).

Divin Dave,

Your post was incredibly helpful! I didn't realize the SWG didn't need to be on the entire time the pump was running. With this info in hand, I've been looking at pool panels that have two timers, one for pump (not sure if I need this exactly since some pumps have built in timers) and one for SWG. Like the Intermatic T40404R and T30404R.

With the pump settings you and pooldv posted, I'm tempted to get that 3HP VS pump! It's not much more compared to the VS pump I was looking at. Do you have the pump running on a timer? If so I'm assuming your timer turns off at 11PM and turns back on at 8AM where the pump then runs your program. Is that the case or does the power go directly to the pump? I'm thinking if both the SWG and pump where on their own timer it would be easier to keep them syncronized when the power goes out but I could be wrong on this one.

Regarding the filter, I don't have many trees in my property. We have some oaks in the front yard and some larger trees about 50' or so towards the back of the yard but I don't think I've ever seen any of those leaves in the pool. Thankfully no bare dirt nearby. Luckily, the pool seems to stays rather clean except when I mow/trim near it... I'll have to landscape the area better knowing this when the time comes. Still hoping the 200sqft filter works for me but honestly I may pay extra just for the laziness in me.

I'm still researching the plumbing phase and I'm eager to start digging and getting this project underway. A lot of people I've talked to recommend getting the pool up and running before I start working on it. They say I'll see how I use it and determine what REALLY needs to be done rather than what I THINK needs to be done. They have a point but in my mind I rather do this once and for wall.

Just curious. Anyone know the best practice to patch up delaminating plaster? Would white thinset or hydraulic cement work or is there another cost effective alternative?

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi Slythic,

Im glad my post was helpful.

No, the SWG does not necessarily need to be on whenever the pump is running. How long it needs to be on depends on how much chlorine you need to make in a day in order to maintain your FC. Determing that is pretty much a matter of trial and error and testing over the course of a few days.

Regarding the intermatic or external timers -
You cannot put an external timer on the Pentair VS pump (not sure about others) and maintain all of the automation features of the Pentair VS pump. I will explain more about that at the bottom of this post. You run power from the breaker directly to the pump.

The control module on top of the VS pump has timer functions built in, and a date function, so an external timer isn't needed anyway. I use those built in timers to set the start and stop times of the pump. You can program however many start and stop times you want to. Once I have my run times and speeds programmed for whatever I want them to be, just push the start button, and from there, the control module takes over. It's a beautiful thing! The Pump being off overnight is just a long pause betwen the last stop time and the next start one.

If the power goes off, Im certain I will have to go out and do something, but Ive not lost power since my pool was built, so I dont know exactly what I might have to do. I think there is a battery backup in the pump control module to keep the clock running and prevent the program from reverting to default. I would have to refer to the manual to be sure, but its late!

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I use a Intermatic Timer set to turn the power to the SWG off when I am just skimming on low speed and dont need to make chlorine.

I have my timer to the SWG set to turn on 10 minutes AFTER the pump start time, and turn off 10 minutes BEFORE the pump stop time. This ensures there is water always running through the SWG cell whenever it is powered up.

It is not a good idea to have the SWG powered up for a long period of time without water flow through it. For one thing, its just wear and tear on the when its not necessary. Nothing wrong with trying to extend the life of it as long as possible, expecially considering the cost of a new one.

Now for the most important reason .... There is a flow switch built in to the SWG. Now here is something important to understand. > If the flow switch senses that there is not enough water flow through the cell, a red light alarm for No FLOW will light up, and the cell should cease to attempt to make Chlorine. But, WHAT IF?

What IF the Flow Switch on the SWG fails and there is no flow of water to carry the chlorine away? What will happen? Well what happens is the SWG will still continue to make chlorine. The failed flow switch tricks it into thinking everything is OK. Chlorine is a gas and that gas getting trapped in the cell and plumbing could be a potentially dangerous situation, [Edit - during the electrolysis process of making chlorine, hydrogen is produced and hydrogen can be explosive]. It's been known on occasion for an explostion to happen because of continous power to a cell, with no or low flow because of a failed flow switch.
A timer is cheap insurance against such an event.
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Now about my comment earlier of not using an external timer with the VS Pump;

The control module on top of the pump needs constant power so the clock and internal timers continue to operate and control running the program. Somehow, some power is drawn from one leg of the input power to satisfy the control module and keep the thing going.

If power is removed from the pump by the external timer, the pump basically is forced into a hard power reset. A power reset puts the pump into OFF mode and will not automatically start back up when the external timer re-applies power to it.
You would have to physically go out to the pump and push the ON button to resume operation of the pump and your program, thus eliminating the auto function of the VS Pump. I found this out the hard way by spending 300 dollars on a timer that I didnt need.

Being in Florida, you may never need it, but the Pentair VS also has a built in Freeze Protection. Just thought I would throw that in there to boot!

If you were using a 2 speed pump then an external timer for the pump would be necessary to perform a simular type of run time program, but without the added feature of controlling the RPMs

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Im afraid I dont know anything about repairing plaster, but maybe someone else will chime in on that.

Also, if you have a light in the pool, consider putting a timer on that too. Its worth the convenience of not having to turn it on and off every night.

I hope this helps. Feel free to continue to ask questions as they come up and I will try to answer them as accurately as I can.

 

[n240sxguy]

Chlorine is a gas and that gas getting trapped in the cell and plumbing could be a potentially dangerous situation, because chlorine gas is explosive.

Chlorine gas actually isn't flammable or explosive. During the electrolysis process the cell uses to break the salt into chlorine, hydrogen gas is produced as a byproduct. That's where the explosion hazard comes from.

 

[pooldv]

My VS pump is also connected to a useless time clock. My swg is hard wired and always on. The flow switch turns it on and off. But, my pump is always on so that really only happens when the pump is on low and my filters get clogged enough to slow the water flow. My PB says that it is fine for it to be on all the time. Guess (hope) he never had one fail and blow up. I suppose I could hardwire my pump to the panel and my swg to the time clock. Since I don't have automation to control the IC40 I can only choose 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% or 100% and sometimes 20% makes a little too much chlorine when the bioload is low. But it hasn't been enough of a problem for me to do anything about it.

I did learn the hard way my first winter that swg does NOT work in the cold but algae still grows. Took me a while to kill that off. Last winter I put a gallon of bleach in the pool every few weeks to keep the chlorine test extra yellow and it worked great.

 

[Divin Dave]

thanks for the clarification about that. I will make an edit.

Chlorine gas actually isn't flammable or explosive. During the electrolysis process the cell uses to break the salt into chlorine, hydrogen gas is produced as a byproduct. That's where the explosion hazard comes from.

 

[mas985]

Responding per PM request.

1. Is 2" PVC plumbing for the entire pool system overkill? Seems like the right thing to do but want to make sure.

2" would be a good choice but the main thing would be to get rid of as much galvanized as possible to avoid future problems.

2. Is a Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo VS recommended? Any other pump recommendations?

I think it is a good choice but keep in mind the limitations that jblizzle pointed out regarding speed control.

3. Are cartridge filters the lowest maintenance option? Any other filter recommendations?

Cartridges can be a low maintenance option but only if they are oversized. An undersize cartridge can be maintenance nightmare.

4. Is it possible to oversize a filter too much?

Not really for DE or Cartridge but for a sand, you need to match the pump with the filter size so it isn't too strong to push dirt through the filter nor is it too weak to effectively backwash the filter.

5. Any experience with a salt chlorine generator? Thinking of AutoPilot or Hayward Goldline.

I have a Goldline and am very happy with it.


Regarding the main drain, have you considered an SVRS pump? That would not require a dual main drain. But in reality, I don't think a main drain adds much and you probably wouldn't miss it except for replacing water.

 

[slythic]

Hey guys!

Been a while since my last post.

Started trenching this weekend but it's been raining the last couple of days so little to no progress. Hope to be done by this weekend. By the way, while trenching I discovered the furthest return from the pump (I lovingly call it 'return 2') was plumbed using 1" PVC. I'm thinking the original pool had only one return and a pool guy came after the fact and added the extra return, if so, why in the world pick 1"? One of many questions I'll never answer with this house...

Anyway, since I'm getting close to plumbing I wanted to confirm my thought process on this. Jblizzle was a big help earlier but I want to make double sure before I continue.

Based on my pool size (15x25 @ 5ft depth) for an 8 hour turnaround I'm looking at close to 30GPM. The main drain (31' away) and skimmer (32' away) give me 31.5' of average head.

Like I've mentioned before, I'm plumbing every line independently. The main drain, skimmer, return 1, return 2, vacuum and even a potential small waterfall (2'-4' wide) will be individual lines (a total of 6 pipes if I decide to do the waterfall feature). I like that 2" seems to be a standard and seems like it would be the "right" thing to do, but I realize it may be overkill for my system. The 1.5" pipe would make it more convenient to run the pipe but it's not a big deal.

Another thought is to pipe the return lines with 1.5" and suction lines piped as 2". I will likely be keeping the main drain pipe that is 1.5", if I decide to go 2" for suction does it make sense to go 2" from pump to then reduce at main drain pipe or just stick with 1.5" all the way through?

I know I've asked this before but I want to make sure I make the right hydraulic decision. What would you guys do?

 

[slythic]

Thanks mas985! Posted before I saw your reply.

Since I'm doing all the plumbing myself I'm not sure how much of the main drain galvanized plumbing I can take out. I would love to replace it I just don't know if it's worth the effort. The way I see it, it's easier to keep the main drain and use it and if it ever fails, I could just cancel it (close it up with concrete or just close the main drain valve permanently).

I forgot to mention that I will be installing the new skimmer style and eliminating the old lilypad skimmer. I will be left with a hole in the pool at approx the same depth as the first return. I can either close it off, use it for the equalizer line of the new skimmer or add a third return to the pool (pointing all the way down and towards return 1). What do you guys think?

 

[mas985]

Based on my pool size (15x25 @ 5ft depth) for an 8 hour turnaround I'm looking at close to 30GPM. The main drain (31' away) and skimmer (32' away) give me 31.5' of average head.

Unfortunately, calculating head is much more complicated than that. But you really don't need it anyway. The concept of turnover and flow rates is somewhat flawed in that none of it really matters. Size the pump as small as you can or go with a VS and you should be fine.

As for an equalizer line, those can be useful but not all that necessary. They are probably most useful for pools without an autofill in high evaporation areas where the water level can easily drop below the skimmer.

 

[slythic]

As for an equalizer line, those can be useful but not all that necessary. They are probably most useful for pools without an autofill in high evaporation areas where the water level can easily drop below the skimmer.

Would you use the hole to run a new third return or close it off?

I like the idea of going with as small a pump as necessary! Will keep looking for a proper pump for my system. Thanks!

 

[slythic]

Regarding the main drain, have you considered an SVRS pump? That would not require a dual main drain. But in reality, I don't think a main drain adds much and you probably wouldn't miss it except for replacing water.

I've looked into SVRS pumps but most of them are on top of the line pump models. I'll look for a more affordable version.

If you were in my position, would you close off the main drain now and plaster over it or keep it as I suggested before (use it until it fails and then close it off)? Leaning towards the latter but always looking for different opinions and suggestions. Thanks again Mark.

 

[mas985]

Do you know if the MD has galvanized pipe all the way to the drain? If so, I would consider plugging it otherwise it will probably start leaking at some point and you may not know when.

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi slythic,

Glad to see ya back and going forward with your reno.

My .02 on the main drain. Get rid of it. Like Mark said, at some point it will most likely become problematic and need fixed or capped of and that will be a pain.
Also consider that your Main Drain does not meet the Virgina Graeme Baker requirements. Not sure how your insurance company might feel about that, or any inspectors that might do inspections on your pool during the reno. Or anyone who might want to buy your house should it become for sale in the future.

I've looked into SVRS pumps but most of them are on top of the line pump models. I'll look for a more affordable version.

If you were in my position, would you close off the main drain now and plaster over it or keep it as I suggested before (use it until it fails and then close it off)? Leaning towards the latter but always looking for different opinions and suggestions. Thanks again Mark.

 

[slythic]

Do you know if the MD has galvanized pipe all the way to the drain? If so, I would consider plugging it otherwise it will probably start leaking at some point and you may not know when.

My .02 on the main drain. Get rid of it. Like Mark said, at some point it will most likely become problematic and need fixed or capped of and that will be a pain.
Also consider that your Main Drain does not meet the Virgina Graeme Baker requirements. Not sure how your insurance company might feel about that, or any inspectors that might do inspections on your pool during the reno. Or anyone who might want to buy your house should it become for sale in the future.

I'm 98% sure it's galvanized all the way through. I'll double check this weekend after I drain the pool again (lots of rain this week).

Assuming I plug the main drain, that would leave the skimmer as the only suction line in the pool (not counting the vacuum line but that won't be on all the time). I was under the impression there needed to be more than one suction line to provide the right "flow". Would two returns still be acceptable once the main drain is eliminated?

 

[mas985]

You can have only one suction line. It might make sense then to put in the equalizer line for that single skimmer as a backup in case the skimmer gets blocked. Also, what is the line from the skimmer to the pump, also galvanized and are you planning to replace that too?

 

[slythic]

You can have only one suction line. It might make sense then to put in the equalizer line for that single skimmer as a backup in case the skimmer gets blocked. Also, what is the line from the skimmer to the pump, also galvanized and are you planning to replace that too?

Planned to replace all lines with 2" PVC. The only line I considered leaving galvanized was the main drain as it would be a pain to replace.

If eliminating the main drain, does it still make sense to plumb every line with 2"? Should I plumb the skimmer with larger pipe and the returns with 2" or 1.5"? Do two returns still sound good?

I know I may be over thinking this but I can't help it! Thanks for help!

 

[mas985]

Yes, it makes sense to use 2" lines, especially for the skimmer. The returns could be left at 1.5" if you want. Lower head loss lines means higher flow rates but also higher energy use. But it also helps prevent issues on the suction lines so those are much more important to have as larger pipe. The return lines are optional.

 

[slythic]

Yes, it makes sense to use 2" lines, especially for the skimmer. The returns could be left at 1.5" if you want. Lower head loss lines means higher flow rates but also higher energy use. But it also helps prevent issues on the suction lines so those are much more important to have as larger pipe. The return lines are optional.

I would like to stick with 2" on the returns but may decide to reduce to 1.5" on both returns just because of convenience (limited pump pad width). It's good to know it doesn't make much of a difference in my case. I'm inclined to add a third return but not sure if it's worth the trouble.

I'll use 2" for the skimmer and vacuum line.

I was going to plumb the vacuum line on the suction side but now I've been doing some research and there are cleaners that don't require a separate booster pump so I'm assuming they simply connect to the return line. Any thoughts on plumbing the vacuum line to the suction vs return line? It seems to me that the return line (pressure) would make more sense but not sure.

The good thing about adding the vacuum line on the return is that I can use it as the third return when not vacuuming the pool. Am I correct in thinking this?

 

[mas985]

Any thoughts on plumbing the vacuum line to the suction vs return line?

Those are two different types of cleaner. You first need to decide which cleaner you want. Suction side cleaners are good for pools that have small debris on the floor (small leaves and dirt), while a pressure side cleaner is better for pools with larger debris.

The good thing about adding the vacuum line on the return is that I can use it as the third return when not vacuuming the pool. Am I correct in thinking this?

You cannot add a vacuum/suction line on to a return line. You can however put a pressure side cleaner on a return line. I think that is what you mean?