Exploding pool!!!

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Lots of good insight in the comments here. One factor could be the mounting spot for the freeze protection thermo-sensor; If it's attached to a nice warm wall that is heated well from inside the house, or one that holds a lot of heat from the afternoon sun, maybe the protection is kicking in too late. I have a west facing wall that can still feel warm after midnight, even in chilly weather. If this is a possible problem, an easy fix would be to remount the freeze protection module on top of a chunk of insulation board. Just a thought.
Don
 
Looking back at the weather history for your area, it doesn't look like the temp got anywhere close to freezing temps that could cause that kind of damage.

Also, pipes freezing solid will not usually cause damage. They need to have blockage on both ends in order for the pressure to build and bust the pipe. As pipes freeze, it freezes from the outside in so right before it freezes solid, the pressure is usually relieved through the non-frozen center portion. The only way to break the pipe is if both ends are blocked by either previously frozen water or by a closed valve. But given the temps experienced, it just seem highly unlikely that it would freeze at all. Our temps get far lower for far longer and my pipes rarely freeze and have never broken even though I don't use freeze protection. The only possible explanation is that a previous event weakened the pipe which then broke later. Could something have fallen on the pipe?

Water hammer can happen on plumbing systems with check valves since those can close quickly but it looks like that section of plumbing did not have a check valve or at least I cannot see one.
 
UnderWaterVanya said:
Budman said:
:-D
7 pumps
booster pump on far end for spa
Click to expand...

YIKES! :rant: What the power bill is like for that I don't even want to imagine. Why are two of the pumps isolated with a pair of check valves?
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Those are for the negative edges, one for the upper pool and one for the main pool.
I'm guessing the check valves keep the pump primed and also to keep the water from draining back down to the trough.
Not sure why they plumbed the intake with 3" pipe, maybe it's 3 1/2". Either way it seems overkill.
 
I can't help but think that the previous problem of the filter top bursting loose is related. Quote that info came from is below:

Budman said:
Last year the filter top cracked all around the clamping ring. Blew completely off like someone cut it around the top part of the ring.
I clean the filters often (non DE) since it's a large pool and it gets a lot of dust and sand from being in the desert.
I figured it was from constantly loosening and tightening the band and expansion and contraction.
Click to expand...
 
I've seen quite a few of the Pentair filter tops crack and also the bottom where the ribs are and they'll split there over time.

The sun can be brutal out here especially in the summer when temps are common in the 110*+ range.

Last year when the filter top cracked cleanly just above the ring, it was a bit odd.
I'll stand there and watch the pressure gauge and nothing unusual happens.

Although today I turned the valve to shut off the pop ups and just had it on pool return and the pressure shot up over 40 psi.
I have never turned that valve before since I run pop ups all the time.
I just replaced all the gears yesterday in the main pool pop ups since they were getting worn.
If they were to stick in one particular place, would the pressure shoot up or is there always a port open at some time?
 
mas985 said:
pipes freezing solid will not usually cause damage. They need to have blockage on both ends in order for the pressure to build and bust the pipe. As pipes freeze, it freezes from the outside in so right before it freezes solid, the pressure is usually relieved through the non-frozen center portion. The only way to break the pipe is if both ends are blocked by either previously frozen water or by a closed valve.
Click to expand...

I must disagree with Mark only because i have seen pipe(s) burst with no blockage on each side of the burst. While there is a void in the center of freezing water before it becomes solid, that void is filled with water and expands(hydraulically), and has no place to go, different than if it were a gas and could compress.

You (Mark), are in the bay area, as i am. I don't know if you remember back in the 70's or 80's, cant remember, we had that real hard freeze? That was the busiest winter i ever had. We were replacing many many heater headers (bronze and C.I) that had burst, along with lots of PVC. Until then, i too would have thought there was enough room inside pipe to handle the expansion caused by freezing.

I am concerned with the amount of failures Budman has experienced with his equipment. The filter cracked, the pump housing cracked, and now this. Something is going on with your equipment that may be related, or just a coincidence. But would make me concerned if not a little irritated.
 

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One other thing Budman, not related though.

It appears that your heaters are connected with gas via flex lines. If you refer to your manual, you will find that the manufacturer does not recommend the use of flex, but rather to hard plumb with 3/4". 3/4" flex has the inside diameter of 1/2".

UNLESS...

You are fueled with propane in a STAGE ONE configuation. Then you can run 1/2".
 
Pool Clown said:
I must disagree with Mark only because i have seen pipe(s) burst with no blockage on each side of the burst. While there is a void in the center of freezing water before it becomes solid, that void is filled with water and expands(hydraulically), and has no place to go, different than if it were a gas and could compress.
Click to expand...
But what you are describing is a blockage by definition. If the water expands and has no where to go, it is blocked by something. My point is that water does not freeze all at once and if it is a gradual freeze, which it mostly does, then the pressure cannot build up in the pipe because the excess pressure is released through the center of the pipe as it freezes. Anyway this is not my theory but is well documented here:

http://www.weather.com/activities/homea ... event.html

And I believe it to be true from my own experience and experiments.
 
Pool Clown said:
mas985 said:
pipes freezing solid will not usually cause damage. They need to have blockage on both ends in order for the pressure to build and bust the pipe. As pipes freeze, it freezes from the outside in so right before it freezes solid, the pressure is usually relieved through the non-frozen center portion. The only way to break the pipe is if both ends are blocked by either previously frozen water or by a closed valve.
Click to expand...

I must disagree with Mark only because i have seen pipe(s) burst with no blockage on each side of the burst. While there is a void in the center of freezing water before it becomes solid, that void is filled with water and expands(hydraulically), and has no place to go, different than if it were a gas and could compress...


...I am concerned with the amount of failures Budman has experienced with his equipment. The filter cracked, the pump housing cracked, and now this. Something is going on with your equipment that may be related, or just a coincidence. But would make me concerned if not a little irritated.
Click to expand...

One thing to remember is that his weather hasn't been consistently freezing - and when it broke it had not been freezing for a while. Could there be some past freeze damage that a major pressure spike just took advantage of? Even so that area just doesn't seem to get much freezing temperature.
 
mas985 said:
Pool Clown said:
I must disagree with Mark only because i have seen pipe(s) burst with no blockage on each side of the burst. While there is a void in the center of freezing water before it becomes solid, that void is filled with water and expands(hydraulically), and has no place to go, different than if it were a gas and could compress.
Click to expand...
But what you are describing is a blockage by definition. If the water expands and has no where to go, it is blocked by something. My point is that water does not freeze all at once and if it is a gradual freeze, which it mostly does, then the pressure cannot build up in the pipe because the excess pressure is released through the center of the pipe. Anyway this is not my theory but is well documented here:

http://www.weather.com/activities/homea ... event.html

And I believe it to be true from my own experience and experiments.
Click to expand...

Mark, unfortunately i cannot recite scientific information other than MY own experience as well. Maybe we can agree that in the right conditions "it can happen", but not every time...
 
Pool Clown said:
Mark, unfortunately i cannot recite scientific information other than MY own experience as well. Maybe we can agree that in the right conditions "it can happen", but not every time...
Click to expand...

I'm going to stay out of the details since I do not know nearly as much as you two - but I do want to ask why the SWG would be unharmed if there was a freezing event - I can't get my head around a way in which the freeze damage would occur in such a way to spare all the other pipes in that massive system and only impact the one's that came right after the SWG - and yet not damage the SWG itself.
 
PC,

I wasn't suggesting that it couldn't happen. Of course it can but the conditions are very rare and usually only occur at temps below 20F as the article explains. I was only explaining why it is so rare and why the conditions have to be so extreme for that happen. The water must freeze at different rates in different parts of the plumbing to cause an ice dam to occur. Only then can the pressure build to the breaking point. At the OPs temperatures, I just don't think it is possible. It is more likely that the damage occurred at some other point in time and the pressure weakened but did not break the pipe originally. Only later did it fail.

UWV,

One section of the pipe could possibly fail before another. Once the pipe has failed, the pressure is released so other parts of the plumbing may not fail then. Again, it is necessary for the ice to block the expanding water for the pipe to fail which means that both ends must be blocked unless one of the two ends is blocked by a valve.
 
mas985 said:
UWV,

One section of the pipe could possibly fail before another. Once the pipe has failed, the pressure is released so other parts of the plumbing may not fail then. Again, it is necessary for the ice to block the expanding water for the pipe to fail which means that both ends must be blocked unless one of the two ends is blocked by a valve.
Click to expand...

Where I get confused is that in this particular setup the various sections of pipe appear to be somewhat separate loops - it is not clear to me what sections are interlinked and which are not - there are also check valves in at least two of the pump loops - so I'm having a hard time thinking that the damage would be entirely isolated but your point is valid.

I have so little knowledge of how freezing impacts these pipes - I never envisioned as much damage as we are seeing here - I figured it would blow at only one or two places not shatter entire sections and valves.
 
Your right, the damage looks more like a sledge hammer as Dave suggested than ice damage. Normally, one small section of the pipe breaks which releases the pressure so no more damage is done. Looking at the pictures again, it looks like something fell on it rather than breaking from the inside out. Especially the valve. I don't think it would fail like that due to ice.
 
If the water valve is fed from the filter water circuit, there could be a water hammer situation there. When the cleaner valve changes from one station to the next (call it sta A and sta B), there is an overlap where both A and B stations are open. When A station then closes, it can snap shut, causing somewhat of a hammer. I have seen this in some of the PCC water valves, but dont see enough of the caretaker valves to tell if it happens to them.

Maybe someone else that sees them more can comment.

I think it could be conceivable that Budman had a freezing event that cracked various places in the plumbing, and later (days/week) had the partial hammer that i described above that "broke the camels back". Especially if he is running a variable speed pump at a low flow rate for the majority of the daily run time where there wouldn't be enough pressure to show any leaks, then when the pump ramped up to run the floor cleaner, it begin to put the stress on the plumbing, and the eventual failure.
 

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