Phosphates and sudden chlorine drop

I think I get it. If you eliminate the loss of chlorine, there will be less need to add it. Higher CYA will mean I need a higher FC level, lets say 5 instead of 3, but I should be able to maintain that at a lower setting as long as its not being taken away by sunlight.

So raise the CYA up to about 80, which requires FC to be around 4. I'll lose less chlorine to sunlight and be able to run the SWG at a lower level.
 
Not in an outdoor pool at any even remotely plausible CYA level. Since sunlight breaks down some percentage of your chlorine, higher FC levels mean you lose more chlorine. That makes the system self stabilizing, as more chlorine is added, more is lost to sunlight (all other things remaining constant) and things stabilize at levels well below ones which will get you into trouble.
 
The following table shows rough FC loss percentages at various CYA levels and shows proportionally scaled FC levels to keep the FC/CYA at a 5% ratio (SWG pools). These obviously will vary a lot depending on the amount of sun, so this is just an example. You can see that even at 100 ppm CYA there is still enough loss of chlorine that an SWG should be able to be set at a lower percentage on-time (i.e. it's not below some limit like a 10% on-time unless one seriously over-sized the cell).

CYA ... FC ... % Loss/day ... % Loss/hr ... FC loss/hr .... % ontime (0.5 ppm FC/hr = 100%)
... 0 ... 0.1 ....... 99.6% ......... 50.0% ........... 0.07 ............ 14% (but can't realistically maintain 0.1 ppm FC everywhere)
... 0 ... 1.0 ....... 99.6% ......... 50.0% ........... 0.69 .......... 138% (can't keep up)
. 30 ... 1.5 ........ 67% ........... 12.9% ........... 0.19 ............ 38% (say, 40%)
. 50 ... 2.5 ........ 40% ............. 6.2% ........... 0.16 ............ 32% (say, 30%)
. 80 ... 4.0 ........ 22% ............. 3.1% ........... 0.12 ............ 24% (say, 25%)
100 ... 5.0 ........ 15% ............. 2.0% ........... 0.10 ............ 20%
160 ... 8.0 .......... 7.7% .......... 1.0% ........... 0.08 ............ 16%

0.5 ppm FC per hour would be 1.5 pounds chlorine per day (24 hours) in a 15,000 gallon pool. The "FC loss/hr" is calculated assuming continuous maintenance so is not a simple multiplication ( FC loss/hr = FC * (-ln(1-(Loss/hr))/1hr ). The "% Loss/day" is without any maintenance of the FC level so the absolute loss slows down as the FC drops. The % Loss per hour assumes about 8 hours of "noontime equivalent" sun per day in the summer ( (Loss/hr) = 1-(1-(Loss/day))1/8 ). The above assumes full sun in southern latitudes.

The example with 0 ppm CYA requires a minimum FC to not run out locally, but I also show the theoretical equivalent FC of 0.1 that would give the same disinfection/oxidation rates if somehow it could be maintained throughout the water. The active chlorine (hypochlorous level) is the same for all of the above as is the hypochlorite ion level. All but about 0.05 ppm of the FC is bound to CYA. Most of the chlorine loss during the day is from breakdown of the chlorine bound to CYA. The higher CYA levels shield lower depths from UV to give a protection from breakdown that more than makes up for the higher required FC level. The 160 ppm CYA is a guess and in practice other chlorine loss factors will start to dominate such as the slow chlorine oxidation of CYA itself which may be 0.2 to 0.3 ppm FC per day (depending on temperature) so 0.03 or so per hour. The above table assumes no bather load nor extraordinary chlorine demand (say from pollen, etc.) and cooler temps (closer to 80ºF). I know that in our own pool if covered with no sun and no bather load that at 88ºF the daily chlorine loss is around 0.6 to 0.7 ppm FC per day (perhaps from oxidation of the pool cover? and for uncovered pools there is a small amount of hypochlorous gas outgassing), so the low implied losses at higher CYA levels may not get as low as shown.

So you can see that going from 30 ppm CYA to 80 ppm CYA can cut the required SWG on-time percentage roughly in half even maintaining the same FC/CYA ratio for consistent disinfection/oxidation rates. In practice, people don't see quite this amount of dramatic change, but they do see a large improvement and the table may not properly account for some non-linear effects (some have reported more change seen going from 60 to 80 ppm CYA than from 30 to 60 ppm CYA).
 
So if I understand this correctly, I can run the CYA well beyond 100 ppm and the higher it goes, the lower I can set the salt cell and expect it to maintian the necessary FC level.

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation chem geek.
 
Well, at higher CYA levels other chlorine demand factors may become more dominant so you could see diminishing returns at some point, but you basically have the idea. Also note that high CYA levels become very risky because IF you need to shock the pool then it takes a heck of a lot of chlorine to do so. There are pool services who use 100 ppm CYA in hot desert areas, but I don't know of any who use a higher target level than that.
 
I don't think i'll be raising the CYA much beyond 100 in any of my pools. I'm just looking to understand how it all works a bit better so when I encounter a difficult pool that is struggling to maintain FC, I can add CYA to bring it back into control. Most of them are in that "30-50" range, so there is plenty of room to bring them up without getting too crazy with the CYA.
 
I'm not sure why anyone would want a high CYA level because if you do get an algae outbreak, you are going to have to really load up the pool with chlorine to take it out. Keep the level in the correct range and if for some reason you do get an outbreak it wouldn't take as much chlorine to get rid of it.
 
I guess the idea would be that if your CYA is high enough, FC stays in the pool, and you shouldn't have an outbreak. But you make a good point. We are all human and mistakes are made from time to time. Keeping CYA at a reasonable level is probably your best bet.
 

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I was thinking about Phosphates and Algae recently, and I thought of a question. If Algae feeds on phosphates, does that mean that if algae were to bloom, then be removed through vacuuming and filtering, the phosphates would go away with the algae? In other words do the algae actually consume the phosphates like food, or do phosphates serve as a catalyst for algae without being consumed?
 
Yes, there should be some reduction in phosphates when you have algae growth and then physical removal of the algae. However, since phosphates aren't a problem for those on this forum since we just maintain a proper FC relative to the CYA level to prevent algae growth, no one has measured this effect as far as I know.
 
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