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Thread: Borate Levels?

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    Borate Levels?

    Last year was our first year with our new pool.
    Dealer pushed ProTeam Supreme and Nature2.
    Now he wants me to add 20 more lbs of ProTeam.
    I already have 4 boxes of Borax to use.
    Only drained off 9 in. of water over winter.
    Took sample into local dealer that sells Optimizer.
    He says it tests @ 50ppm.
    Could this be correct?
    I have ordered borate strips but they have not arrived yet.
    Should I wait to test with those strips?
    Is it possible I will not have to add borax?
    FC 0
    TA 110
    CYA 0
    PH 7.4

    Just bought stabilizer but how much do I add to 5300 gal?
    I have noticed my FC will not stay long.
    Thanks and yes I am new member
    5300 gal. AGP Doughboy 2006 Model COPPER CANYON
    Vinyl 16'
    17" sand 1.5hp
    Tiger River Sumatra 300 gal. Spa
    _______________________________
    SHE JUST HAD TO HAVE THESE!!!!!@%@%@@%

  2. Back To Top    #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,085
    If he says that Optimizer tests at 50 ppm and if he means the amount of Borates in your pool, then yes that is probably right and is fine.

    It will take 21 ounces weight (1.3 pounds) of Cyanuric Acid (CYA) to raise the level to 30 ppm in your 5300 gallon pool. This will lower the pH to 7.1 since CYA is acidic so you will need to add 26 ounces weight (1.6 pounds) of Borax to restore the pH back to 7.4 (or you can use 13 ounces weight of sodium carbonate / Washing Soda / pH Up but that will raise the TA which you don't need to do). You have several options for adding the CYA to your pool and doing so more quickly, since CYA is very slow to dissolve:

    1) Put CYA into panty hose and have it hang over the side of your pool over a return. That's PatL's idea and people swear by it. Dissolves in about 24 hours.

    2) Buy Instant Pool Water Conditioner by Natural Chemistry which is a slurry of the monosodium salt of CYA. It dissolves quickly in water (unlike regular CYA which takes a long time to dissolve).

    3) Add Dichlor to your pool. For every 1 ppm FC you add, you will also add 0.9 ppm CYA. Dichlor quickly disolves in water.

    If you use the Dichlor approach, then you wouldn't add it all at once, but would just use that as an initial source of chlorine until your CYA got to where you wanted it. Some protection from the CYA will happen immediately upon first addition (even 5 ppm CYA helps protect chlorine from sunlight at least a lot more than 0 which you have now.)
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Thanks for your help. Still searching for those pool owners that already have 50ppm borate level and then use additional chemical to raise ph. Is there any problems with > 50ppm borate level?. If this is not a problem then I will raise ph with Borax after CYA treatment. This won't affect TA??????????
    5300 gal. AGP Doughboy 2006 Model COPPER CANYON
    Vinyl 16'
    17" sand 1.5hp
    Tiger River Sumatra 300 gal. Spa
    _______________________________
    SHE JUST HAD TO HAVE THESE!!!!!@%@%@@%

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,085
    Sorry I didn't fully understand your question the first time. If you go with the second option using the Instant Pool Water Conditioner, then that will not change the pH of your pool very much. This is a monosodium salt of CYA and is actually slightly basic (alkaline) so should make the pH rise a little bit. The third option using Dichlor is even more acidic then adding CYA directly, so isn't a good option for you if you don't want to add more base.

    If you add the 21 ounces of CYA and 26 ounces of Borax, then you will only be adding 4 ppm Borates to your existing 50 ppm so that is not a problem at all. As for the TA level, it will go up by almost 10 ppm, but that is almost all due to the addition of CYA, not Borax (the additional 4 ppm of Borates from Borax only contributes 0.3 ppm to the TA and the 50 ppm Borates contributes about 4.5 ppm to the TA). Though the TA rises from the CYA, the actual carbonate alkalinity (aka adjusted TA) remains the same.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Thanks
    Are there any dry volume (approximate) measurent numbers that I can use to convert to weight?
    That is 2 cup Borax = ?? oz.
    1 cup baking soda = ?? oz.
    or 3 cups stabilizer = ?? oz.

    My last post for a while, I need to do my home work. WOW what a spreadsheet!!!

    THE BIRDS ARE ATTACKING OUR POOL!!!!!!!
    5300 gal. AGP Doughboy 2006 Model COPPER CANYON
    Vinyl 16'
    17" sand 1.5hp
    Tiger River Sumatra 300 gal. Spa
    _______________________________
    SHE JUST HAD TO HAVE THESE!!!!!@%@%@@%

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,085
    You should really take a postal scale and measure an empty cup and then one filled with these chemicals at least once since every product is formulated a little differently. I have found that roughly speaking 1 weight ounce is 1 fluid ounce for most of these products. That is, they are roughly the same density as water, at least in bulk (granular or powdered) form. The Borax I have used is certainly this way. 1 cup was about 8 ounces weight -- 2 cups was a pound. The Calcium Hardness I have used as well as the pH Up (same as Baking Soda) were 20% denser so that 1 cup was about 9.6 ounces weight -- 2 cups was 19 ounces (1.2 pounds).

    I'm trying to gather some consensus data on densities at this thread, but since new users can't post to that site anymore, I'll copy that post into a new thread in the chemistry 101 section so people here can give their own measured densities for the chemicals they buy as well. I've done that and it's at this post.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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