Why / How do chlorine tablets raise CYA?

Thanks for he info oh Cal Hypo. Here Are my current number from my pool. only question is on the TA?

TC 5
FC 5
CC 0
TA 110(is this to high?)
PH 7.5
CH 220
CYA 50

As stated pool looks nice and clear! Currently using 6% with pucks in feeded when not available
 
If TA is too high, it puts upward pressure on pH.
As you add acid to lower pH, that will also reduce TA by a small amount.
Over time the pH and TA will usually find a reasonable level and pH will be more stable. Sometimes in pools with lots of aeration or other balance issues, that won't be the case, but usually it does work out.
--paulr
 
duraleigh said:
Thinkly,

For as long as you have been on the forum and as active as you have been, I am quite surprised that you choose to ignore the most written about, discussed subject here......too much CYA

I'm glad it's working out for you but please do not encourage others to try to manage an overstabilized pool. Long term, it simply doesn't work for the vast majority of us.

I'm not encouraging anyone to aspire to high CYA levels. I do personally think that there is some uncertainty as to the validity of the cya test kit in the TF100 test kit. I have no proof I just know the test at the pool store consistantly says the CYA is around 50. With the TF100 it is always over 100.

I tried to address the issue. I had a pool with sparkling water and drained 75% of it. THen refilled, at which point the pool was then cloudy. After that i retested and .....guess what? Still had cya over 100. Then i had to go to the expense of buying more borax, muriatic acid, baking soda, chlorine etc. So what's a man to do? I could have completely (this time) drained the pool again. And I am certain my CYA would have shot down to zero or thereabouts.

Yet again my water would be cloudy and needing the repeated expense of acid, soda ash, borax, etc. all over again. OR i could just let it be and swim in crystal clear water. I can't tell how many people see my water and comment on how clear it is. I think it is because of the borates and DE filter but have no proof. So again i decided that for me TROUBLE FREE meant to leave my water alone and enjoy the summer.

I am not recommending that action for anyone else it's just what worked best for me. I suspicion that using the TF100 cya test and having a small pool that I am not going to ever be able to use stabilized chlorine PERIOD for any length of time. Yet I want to, because it is the most convenient in my opinion and on top of that the water is always beautiful.

One has to make their own decisions in life and I am convinced that having a high CYA test from the TF100 is not a death sentence to the swimmer nor to the pool. Probably 98% of the pools in the world are being operated with purely stabilized chlorine which would probably make most of them have high cya test results with the TF100 test kit.

So I have to question the severity of the consequences of operating a pool with high CYA and/or high FC levels.
 
To me this site is more of sanity check and helps people realize there are more ways than one to keep your pool looking and working great.
Buuuuuut, I do see your point Thinkly. Pretty much everybody I know with a pool uses pucks in a floater AND they do no other maintanence other than run the pump, backwash and shock after heavy swimmer loads. Now thats a trouble free pool :hammer: .
 
The Taylor CYA test (in the TF100 and Taylor kits) is premised on bright indirect light, typically described as outdoors on a clear day with your back to the sun. If you run the test in dimmer light then it will appear to read higher. Also I find that I need to wiggle the tube a little bit to be sure whether the black dot is still there, when it starts to get obscured.
--paulr
 
While we're on the subject of CYA and since this IS my post... :wink:

Just how high can/will CYA get? What I mean is... Is there a point at which CYA climb slows down or stops?

I know a guy who uses mostly tablets to keep his pool chlorinated and just adds chlorine to it as he SEES necessary. Ocasionally he'll pour some muriatic acid in too. Well, I just tested this guy's water the other day and the results were actually quite good for everything except his CYA was at about 90. It kind of surprised me b/c I was expecting much higher considering how many tablets he uses and b/c my CYA is 75 and I only used tablets for a few days before I cut back.
 
For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm. The CYA primarily gets reduced through dilution of the water. Those with summer or winter rains where the water overflows the pool would have the water diluted and the CYA level reduced from what it would otherwise be. Those with a sand filter that gets backwashed or a filter that is regularly cleaned would have water dilution. There is also a slow oxdiation of CYA by chlorine, though that is only around 2 ppm or so per month in most pools. There can also be a drop in CYA over the winter if the pool is "let go" and the FC goes to zero, but this process can result in ammonia which can take a lot of chlorine to get rid of (not everyone experiences this -- sometimes the CYA drops and no ammonia appears to be present).

In my own pool when I first started using Trichlor tablets 7 years ago, my CYA rose from 30 ppm to around 150 ppm in 1-1/2 swim seasons -- 10-11 months of active use (the chlorine addition over the winter was very low). The daily chlorine addition was around 0.7 ppm FC per day at that time (about one 8-ounce 3" Trichlor puck added every 5 days for 16,000 gallons). I have a mostly opaque pool cover and the pool wasn't used as much then though was kept warm (around 88ºF). I also have an oversized cartridge filter that only needs cleaning once a year. Over the winter, I had a pool cover pump that removed the winter rain water and put it into the sewer (not in the pool). So I had very little water dilution. Lo and behold, 30+10.5*30*0.7*0.6 = 162 ppm which is a little higher than the 150 ppm I measured, probably due to the small amount of water carry-out and splash overflow from the pool.

I normally tried to maintain a 3 ppm FC, but after the 1-1/2 seasons there was a mysterious (to me at the time) chlorine demand and I was having a harder time keeping up with chlorine, having to use more tablets. The water started to turn dull on the way to cloudy. It was an impending algae bloom. The only reason the water lasted as long as it did before problems started was that I was using an algaecide that had PolyQuat, but I was only using it every other week. Had I used it every week, I probably could have gone to 200 ppm CYA or perhaps higher. Had I not used any algaecide at all, I probably would have run into problems much sooner, perhaps around 60 ppm CYA or so. My fill water has around 400 ppb phosphates that got added to the pool when it was used from evaporation/refill and, of course, upon initial filling.

As for Thinkly's CYA test that always measured over 100 even after a drain/refill, that would imply that if you were to test tap water that it too would have registered over 100 ppm -- that mixing the CYA reagent with any water would turn cloudy. This is the only report like this we have ever seen. I'm not saying it's not real, but it's definitely not a common or even infrequent experience -- it is a solitary one. Thinkly, if you still have that CYA test and reagents, try testing tap water and see what you come up with. If it turns cloudy, then the reagent must be bad.

As for people using Trichlor tabs and not having problems, of course there are many pools like that, but it's a risk you are taking because there are many pools that do develop algae. Yes, if you have some water dilution and the CYA doesn't get too high, then even 3 ppm FC with 100 ppm CYA might work if you shock the pool weekly to make up for nascent algae growth that could get started and you don't have too reactive a pool in terms of algae nutrients. However, this is a risk. The pool store in my area that does service on thousands of pools keeps the FC at around 4.5 ppm and dilutes the water in any pool when the CYA gets above 100 ppm because they found that too many pools developed algae if they didn't do that (i.e. if they let the CYA keep rising to the 200 ppm the manufacturers claimed was "no problem"). This pool service did not understand the FC/CYA relationship -- this came from their own experience. Because they only visit the pools once a week, they use Trichlor tabs/pucks in either inline chlorinators or floating feeders.

Most residential pools do in fact use Trichlor pucks/tabs, but many also use additional products from the pool store including algaecides, copper ion systems, weekly shocking, etc. that can prevent algae growth at extra cost and with potential consequences (such as staining from the copper). Many pools get water diluted from winter rains and have sand filters with significant backwashing so keep the CYA level in check. And there are many pools that get dull/cloudy water or algae and go to pool stores for solutions. There are literally thousands of pool owners that have come to this and other sites with algae problems and it's growing every year as word spreads -- sure, that pales compared to the 8 million pools in the U.S., but most people with pool problems go to their pool store and not to the Internet finding this site.

Trichlor tabs/pucks are obviously more convenient than manually dosing with chlorine every day or two. So of course people can use them if they understand the consequences and risks. That is all this site is about -- education. It's your pool and you can do what you want with it, but the FC/CYA relationship is real and the risk for developing algae in high CYA pools is real and seen over and over and over and over again when people come to this forum (and others) initially with algae or dull/cloudy pools or early stages with high chlorine demand. Not everyone will experience this, but for those who do there is a simple solution and that's all that is taught.

Richard
 
That is a very well written post. As stated earlier I am not trying to argue against science, I'll leave that to the Kansas Board of Education. :rant: I have tested tap water with my cya test kit and it shows 0, as it should. I just didn't have any luck getting the level down by partially draining my pool.

The obvious answer would be that i didn't drain enough or that since i was refilling at the same time I was draining, that some of the fill water was being drained along with the offending water. So based on the fact that my drain/refill attempt was unsuccessful (regardless of the reason), and that there is a substantial cost involved with said drain/refill I determined to move forward and live with the high cya reading. :blah:
 
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So most likely in your pool you've got very low algae nutrients, probably phosphates (including organic phosphates that aren't measured) though nitrates might be very low as well (usually nitrates build up as a by-product from chlorination of bather waste). If you have a water quality report of your fill water you can see the phosphates level in it. Another possibility is that the Trichlor pucks you are using have some copper in them since copper ions at sufficient concentration do prevent algae growth -- it's just that it can also stain the pool or turn blond hair greenish if the concentration gets too high or the pH gets too high. Since there is no such thing as spontaneous generation, it is also possible (though I think unlikely) that you did not get any algal spores into the pool from which algae could grow.
 
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