Freeze Protection

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vegas-doug

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Jun 29, 2018
104
Henderson NV
Pool Size
16500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
What does everyone recommend on pump freeze protection. I'm in Las Vegas area so it doesn't freeze often, but can get close. I have 3 pumps total, the main filter pump which has freeze protection turned on for the pool circuit, but not the spa circuit. The second pump is for water features but doesn't have freeze protection turned on. Guess I've never heard of having to turn the water features on when freezing... The third pump runs extra spa jets and is controlled with the Intellicom II (since I have an Easytouch 8 that only handles 2 pumps).


So basically I'm not sure if there is a reason to have the second or third pump turn on with freeze protection?


Also not sure if I should have my main filter pump freeze protection stay with returning thru the pool returns, in-floor system, or spa jets?


Is the freeze protection only to ensure the water inside the pump doesn't freeze or to keep water moving thru the pipes as well?
 
The freeze protection is for the pumps' electronics, too, not just the water. My Pentair Intelliflo VS has its own freeze protection built in (it's called "Thermal Mode"), that is guarding the pump and its onboard controller, and unless I explicitly defeat it (settings), it's going to come on when the temps drop no matter what I do with my EasyTouch... And Pentair specifically recommends not to defeat the pump's thermal mode, and not to rely on your pool's other freeze protection systems to protect the pump.

Like you, I don't really need freeze protection, but I let my pump do what it wants to in that regard, and that protects the plumbing at the same time. I've just left the pump's default thermal mode settings alone...

Sorry, not sure how to advise you about pushing water through the various components. I don't have a spa or features...
 
To be honest, I gave up on trying to figure out what the ET would do or override when it comes to freeze protection. It's possible that feature only exists for pumps without built-in freeze protection. Or if you defeat the pump's freeze protection (which, as I mentioned, is not recommended). I just let the pump do it. I was trying to dial down the RPMs, but it always came on to 900. I have a measly ET PSL4, which limits how many pump speeds I can use, so it might have been that.

As addressed in another recent thread, the pump is going to kick into "Thermal Mode" whether there's water in it or not, so that aspect of providing freeze protection is vital. Apparently, they closed the pool, which meant no water in or for the pump, and the pump kicked on anyway (they neglected to turn off the pump's breaker). So all I have to do to ensure freeze protection is to make sure the water level is within the skimmer opening.

Here's something a little obscure. My ET has spa features, but I have no spa. And I have an Indoor Control Panel (which has a spa button and corresponding LED). So I turned on the spa's "On with freeze" setting, and set the pump speed for the spa at or below the pump's default freeze mode speed of 900RPM (so freeze mode wouldn't increase the Thermal Mode pump speed). So...

When it gets cold enough, either the ET or the pump initiates freeze mode (based on air temperature), which kicks on the spa mode, and my little green spa LED lights up on my Indoor Panel, and my ScreenLogic history tracks when the spa was on. So... even though I don't have a spa, I'm able to get visual feedback inside, and a record within ScreenLogic, when freeze mode engages. It's a nice confirmation that everything is working as it should, and also clues me in to how cold it's getting (which I use to protect other thing in my yard, like my citrus trees).

Like I said... obscure...
 
This thread - The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection - gives the following guidelines:

If you would like to be able to go without automated freeze protection OR you would just like to have an extra layer of protection, then you can follow some of the suggestions listed below. The temperature ranges and time are using the thermal loss spreadsheet above which are fairly conservative freeze estimates (i.e. assumes 15 mph winds, full sky exposure with maximum radiation losses and ignores latent heat in filters and surrounding structures).

1. Air Temp 32F-25F for <10 hours. Plumbing 1" and above is safe. Tarp or drain for smaller pipes.

2. Air Temp 32F-20F for <10 hours. Plumbing 1.5" and above is safe. Tarp or drain for smaller pipes.

3. Air Temp 32F-15F for <10 hours. Plumbing 2" and above is safe. Tarp or drain for smaller pipes.

4. Air Temp 32F-10F for <10 hours. Plumbing 2.5" and above is safe. Tarp or drain for smaller pipes.

5. Air Temp 32F-0F for <10 hours. Tarp equipment and use an incandescent light bulb underneath OR use heat tape available at your local hardware store.

6. Air Temp <0F. Drain all equipment and plumbing.
 
We had our first freeze here in Houston last night. My Intelliflow by way of Easy Touch came on at 36 deg. Every 15 minutes it is switched from Pool Mode to Spa mode so both are being run. Makes sense. Not sure if the PB set some function or if this is just by default. Also the Whisperflow pump came on at same time and ran the water features. My PB recommended running this as well.
 
Dirk said:
The freeze protection is for the pumps' electronics, too, not just the water. My Pentair Intelliflo VS has its own freeze protection built in (it's called "Thermal Mode"), that is guarding the pump and its onboard controller, and unless I explicitly defeat it (settings), it's going to come on when the temps drop no matter what I do with my EasyTouch... And Pentair specifically recommends not to defeat the pump's thermal mode, and not to rely on your pool's other freeze protection systems to protect the pump.

Like you, I don't really need freeze protection, but I let my pump do what it wants to in that regard, and that protects the plumbing at the same time. I've just left the pump's default thermal mode settings alone...

Sorry, not sure how to advise you about pushing water through the various components. I don't have a spa or features...
Click to expand...

This is my first winter using the intelliflo vsf. thermal mode is set for 40degrees (the lowest setting) with a RPM of 950. My control panel's freeze protection setting is for 35 degrees.

If the temp drops to below 40, thermal mode is supposed to kick on I assume at 950rpm or does it default to whatever normal daily program setting speed is? If it turns on at 950 for its own protection (not plumbing/pool protection) , what happens when temps keep dropping to below 35 degrees? does the pump ramp up to whats been programmed for normal speed for daily circulation or does the system know the pump is already running (at 950 due to its thermal mode) and stays at the much lower thermal mode rpm for the rest of the evening (which is not adequate for my pool's normal circulation and plumbing protection with 8 port caretaker infloor returns).

Should I set my thermal mode rpm higher so it will circulate the pool water properly throughout the entire system's plumbing to protect the pool during freezing temp nights?
 
It's been my experience that whenever two schedules overlap, the higher RPM prevails. That's in my ET controller. In your case, there's no easy way to test what will happen without simulating freezing temps! You could "fake out" the automation controller, by manipulating the resistance across the air temp sensor connectors, but not the pump's internal temp sensor. So you'd need catch it in the act, so to speak.

If you have no reason to ever have the Thermal Mode come on at its default RPM, then why not set your desired freeze-protection RPM in both places, and cover your bases: in the pump and in the control panel? They'd sort of back each other up that way. If that's not what you want, I'd want to see it work the way it's supposed to, and not gamble my plumbing on what a manual claims. So I'd check the weather websites for the first 35° spell, and get up and watch what happens. Easy for me to say, as I'm up most of the night anyway.

Alternately, you could turn up the threshold in both places, as high as they'll go (with the pump still highest) and see what happens that way, without having to wait for an actual freeze.

It'd be helpful to know what your controller is. Can you put that in your signature? And while you're editing, put your location in the Location field of your profile? That'll help us help you.
 

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Looks like I can adjust my pump's freeze temp threshold, but not my controller (Pentair ET). I could fool it with the right resistor, or temporarily alter the air temp offset adjustment, to make my ET think it's colder than it is.
 
I have my system set up such that I can track in ScreenLogic's history when my freeze mode kicks on. But it's not clear if that's the pump's Thermal Mode or the ET's freeze protection. And I can't now go back through last year's ScreenLogic history to see if that came on around 40° or 35°. Now you've got me curious!

Bottom line: I'm in a 5" frost line zone, and freezing temps never last more than a few hours here. I don't really have to worry about anything on my pad freezing. Vegas is a bit colder (10" frost line), but unless your pad experiences freezing temps all day long, I doubt you have to worry about this much either. It'd take quite a while for a PVC pipe to freeze solid.
 
I'm gonna piggy back on this thread.

Just got my VS pump installed. I'm trying to find how to adjust the rpm specifically for when the freeze protection kicks on.

I currently have 2 speeds set up. Higher speed (2200) for a few hours to move surface debris and the rest low speed (1200). Will the freeze protect default to one or the other? Not finding much in the manual.

The other secondary question to this scenario is when the pump is running 1200 I have basically a trickle over the spa overflow. The equipment pad is about 6" below pool level so maybe 18" below spa level. Do I need to up the rpms so the pumps got enough pressure to move the water over the overflow better during freezes?

Thanks.
 
Dirk said:
It's been my experience that whenever two schedules overlap, the higher RPM prevail.
Click to expand...

thermal mode is not a scheduled program so when temps reach under 40 the thermal mode kicks in at very low rpm to protect the pump, not the pool plumbing, no matter what the easy touch freeze protection is set at. I still dont know what happens when the thermal mode kicks in and then temps continue to fall to below the easy touch freeze protection temp. since thermal mode IS NOT a "scheduled" program, does the easy touch freeze protection kick in when temps get lower to whatever the existing program is set to (rpm wise) or will the easy touch freeze protection programming detects the pump already on (at thermal protection low rpm) and stays with that rather than up ramping to program 1,2,3,4 whatever was previously set?
 
I believe the default thermal mode is 900 RPM. I couldn't make it run slower than that with the ET's freeze mode settings, the pump's RPM takes precedence. The pump's thermal mode will not engage the other pump speeds you have set up. But the ET has its own freeze mode, and that you can set to any RPM you want (except lower than the pump's thermal mode RPM).

You can tie any circuit to freeze mode in ScreenLogic Configurator, on the Setup Circuits screen. Select the circuit and check "On with Freeze."

So, for example, you could turn that on for the circuit that controls your spill over. When the temp drops, the pump's thermal mode will ramp up to 900RPM, then when the ET detects the freezing temp, it'll engage the spill over. I presume it'll flip the appropriate actuators as well, but I've never tested that myself...
 
Dirk said:
You can tie any circuit to freeze mode in ScreenLogic Configurator, on the Setup Circuits screen. Select the circuit and check "On with Freeze."

So, for example, you could turn that on for the circuit that controls your spill over. When the temp drops, the pump's thermal mode will ramp up to 900RPM, then when the ET detects the freezing temp, it'll engage the spill over. I presume it'll flip the appropriate actuators as well, but I've never tested that myself...
Click to expand...

Ah shoot I knew that! Thanks for reminding me. Love the ET but sometime it's a little finicky to wrap your head around all of it.
 
Too_Tall said:
I'm gonna piggy back on this thread.

Just got my VS pump installed. I'm trying to find how to adjust the rpm specifically for when the freeze protection kicks on.

I currently have 2 speeds set up. Higher speed (2200) for a few hours to move surface debris and the rest low speed (1200). Will the freeze protect default to one or the other? Not finding much in the manual.

The other secondary question to this scenario is when the pump is running 1200 I have basically a trickle over the spa overflow. The equipment pad is about 6" below pool level so maybe 18" below spa level. Do I need to up the rpms so the pumps got enough pressure to move the water over the overflow better during freezes?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Ditto! Same pump and setup as you (presumably iaqualink) - I can't find how to adjust my freeze protection speed.. I normally run at 1700 but my freeze protect is coming on at 2500...
 
my inteilliflo vs pumps aren't kicking on for freeze protection. temp is around 29 this morning and they are all set with freeze protection enabled at the pump (default - 1,000 rpm under 40 degrees). i don't have freeze protection enabled on the easytouch. any idea why my pumps aren't kicking on with freeze protection enabled on each pump?
 
Bvacchiano said:
We had our first freeze here in Houston last night. My Intelliflow by way of Easy Touch came on at 36 deg. Every 15 minutes it is switched from Pool Mode to Spa mode so both are being run. Makes sense. Not sure if the PB set some function or if this is just by default.
Click to expand...

I've noticed this as well, and I'm close to 100% certain that nothing special was done.
 

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