Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

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Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

DuaeGuttae said:
When I mentioned “testing error,” I’m sorry if it sounded as though I was saying you weren’t doing the tests properly. I was really referring to Taylor’s own acknowledged variance in test readings. I think it’s something like 10%, though I don’t recall exactly.

Do do you have a main drain in the pool where organics could be lurking out of sight? I’m just trying to think of some sources of contamination I’ve read about with other surprisingly long SLAMs.
Click to expand...

No offense taken, whatsoever. ;) I had not heard about the variance according to Taylor, but it does make sense.

I am not sure about the drain. It just looks like big white plug. I have never tried to remove it or even touched it. Is it common to find stuff beneath them? At this point I really don't want to get back in the water. Besides the high chlorine it has gotten a lot colder here lately! (Yes, I'm a Texas wimp who gets out the electric blanket when it dips into the 50s!)

I have high hopes of seeing some sort of a change after a full filter cleanout and brand new DE. We've had a ton of rain the last two days which is preventing me from getting this done. The water level is up by a couple of inches, so that's messing up our test results, too.

Beyond that I'm wondering if this old pool setup is just completely inadequate. The three different pool companies who came out all laughed at it, saying they'd never seen anything quite like it. Two of them took pictures and texted them to their friends to laugh at.
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

I have no visible algae. I have kept my chlorine at shock level 24 for almost weeks straight. Scrubbed tons. My pool that looks perfect. I am still losing way too much chlorine.

I'm starting to wonder if my weird old school setup (pool built in 61) isn't the real problem. Maybe I just don't have enough circulation? Maybe the 60-70 feet of plumbing from pool to pump is causing issues. I don't know where to begin except to show you the pictures. I am a newbie with limited pool vocabulary/ability to describe my setup well in words.

This folder of pics is public and just a click away. LMK if you have problems seeing them.
CaraCatPool - Google Drive

Thanks!
Cara
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Hello! Yes, FC 24. CYA 55. I haven't been checking CCs since I'm still losing so much chlorine, but I just did so and got .5. I rechecked it a couple of times to be sure. How can I still have CCs after 14 days of this? I have been really diligent about keeping the FC at shock level for my CYA.

The last, "no-no" I added was August 16th- Sea Klear's 90-Day Algae Prevention & Remover, which is 11.8% copper-based algaecide, August 16th. I was also using Cal_Hypo shock and a floater containing 3" tablets from Leslie's. Then I found TFP and switched to liquid bleach only Sept 15th. On Sept 23 my CH was 525 & CYA 120. I exchanged half the pool water and got CH down to 275, CYA to 55. (Oct 7) Started SLAM that afternoon.

There is a pretty big area of, "shadowy stains" on the pool bottom. You can tell it USED to be pretty dark and unsightly. Now those spots are quite pale and can only be seen if the water is dead still. Clearly there was a time when someone just let the pool go for an extended period of time. I am starting to wonder if the people that sold us the house didn't dump something(s) in there to try and hide the staining. We bought the place a little less than a year ago.
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

I took pictures of the aforementioned shadow stains, but I can't upload them here, no matter how small I make them. To that end, I've added them to my google drive pool pics. BottomStain 1, 2 and 3. The first & second pics contain some sky & other reflections, so I circled the areas that are actually stains. The 3rd shows the most detail with the least reflection, but it's a small portion of a much larger area.
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Caracat said:
The last, "no-no" I added was August 16th- Sea Klear's 90-Day Algae Prevention & Remover, which is 11.8% copper-based algaecide, August 16th.
Click to expand...

If the old dark stains disappeared, they were probably organic and SLAMing the pool is helping. The 11.8% copper algaecide is a stain problem just waiting to happen. Get some Jack's Magic, Metal Magnet, or similar in there, quick!
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

1) Would I need to do this even though I (should have) lost half the copper when I drained/refilled?
2) Do I need some sort of metal testing kit in order to determine the type/amount of product to use?
3) Can I use these products during SLAM with my FC at 24?
4) I was going to clean filter today. Should I use a metal remover first?
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Keith is offline so I'll try to help for now:
1 - Perhaps not "if" the copper content is not too high
2 - Those get pricy. You can try to have a free pool store test done since they have the reagents for that one (iron & copper). It might not be 100% accurate, but better than purchasing your own for now.
3 - Best to not yet
4 - No need to wait. Clean if needed.

Since a higher FC level tends to cause metals to precipitate, press-on with the SLAM. Once the SLAM is complete, then move forward with iron/copper management if needed. In your 24K pool, if you only added that stuff once, you might be fine. For the SLAM itself, stick to the basics of the SLAM Process .... lots of scrubbing, inspecting every possible hiding place in your pool (handrails, behind lights, etc) and of course maintaining the FC. Day 13 is getting fairly long leaving me with the impression something is still hiding in there.

The only other possibility would be if the CYA was actually higher than you thought. If you have any doubts, double-check to be sure you are at the appropriate FC level for the SLAM. We haven't haad the greatest weather lately, so don't do a CYA test until you get a break in the clouds.
CYA Testing:
Proper lighting is critical for the CYA test, so you want to test for CYA outside on a bright sunny day. Use the mixing bottle to gently mix the required amounts of pool water and R-0013 reagent, let sit for 30 seconds, then gently mix again. Recommend standing outside with your back to the sun and the view tube in the shade of your body at waist level. Then, begin squirting the mixed solution into the skinny tube. Watch the black dot until it completely disappears. Once it disappears, record the CYA reading. To help the eyes and prevent staring at the dot, some people find it better to pour & view in stages. Pour some solution into the viewing tube, look away, then look back again for the dot. Repeat as necessary until you feel the dot is gone. After the first CYA test, you can pour the mixed solution from the skinny view tube back to the mixing bottle, gently shake, and do the same test a second, third, or fourth time to instill consistency in your technique, become more comfortable with the testing, and validate your own CYA reading. Finally, if you still doubt your own reading, have a friend do the test with you and compare results.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

SLAM day SIXTEEN (@^*&%$#!!) Scrubbed the pool yet again, totally broke down and cleaned quad DE filter using this awesome tutorial. Fresh DE added. Now we wait. If we don't start seeing some dramatic drops in FC loss I am pretty much ready to sell the house! Over the last 4-5 days we've lost 8-10 PPM per day and 3.5-4 overnight. PRAYING the fresh filter gives some sort of fresh start.
 

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Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Texas Splash said:
Since a higher FC level tends to cause metals to precipitate, press-on with the SLAM. Once the SLAM is complete, then move forward with iron/copper management if needed.
Click to expand...

That's the way to do it, though by the sound of things, that shouldn't take too long! :mad:

Totally baffled what's going on with your free chlorine, but hold off on selling the house for a while! :confused:

- - - Updated - - -

Check the dates on your FAS-DPD test kit. Don't know why there would be a difference between morning and evening tests, but we're getting desperate here!
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

So I went back to look at all your Google pics. No main drain it appears. No hollow steps or hand rail in the water to worry about. To be losing chlorine it literally has to be one or a combination of these:
- Algae in the water (transparent stages included); although at this rate I would be surprised
- Compromised filter (should be ruled-out from recent cleaning and inspection)
- Bad reagents (highly doubt it though)
- Inaccurate testing (doubtful, but if you have any concerns let us know); this includes the CYA test which has much to do with the SLAM level and FC loss
- Foreign material introduced to the water. (This is the main one that concerns me. Just about anything like those pool store products added before, or even with local heavy rains run-off of dirt or compromised water that could've gotten into the water. Those are sometimes very hard to determine.)
- The light niche.. refresh my memory. It looks like it was sealed quite some time ago huh? Just packed with a bunch of epoxy or some kind of filler? Yet it still looks discolored around the edges. Am I missing anything else about that niche?
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Sorry to be the spoilsport here folks. FC is consumed in your pool by two mechanisms. One is UV from the sun and the other is from oxidizing organics that already exist in your pool.

That axiom should be permanently etched in everyone that undertakes TFP methods. There are literally NO exceptions.

TFP methods involve precision testing and using those test results to interpret what is happening in your pool.

Caracat, could you post a complete set of current test results, please?
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

I was not clear in the above post. Caracat, forget your stains and forget all the peripheral issues EXCEPT the SLAM. It works without exception and, if you stay focused on it's completion, you will have a clear pool and can then address your stains. Our advice is centered around test results. Any advice you get without test results is just guessing
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Hi, Duraleigh. I’m glad you and some other experts are on this thread. Caracat has some pretty detailed posts in the Algae sub forum with lots of good test results, and her last post over there has been strangely silent. Maybe a moderator could combine threads to bring the whole story together and get her some good advice, or at least moral support if it’s just the pool owner patience part. I think she may have three or four threads over there, so that’s part of the problem in seeing the whole picture. She’s got lots of detail, though.
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Yes, sorry about that! I moved over here because this SLAM has gone on for quite a while now (now day 17) and I haven't seen any algae since day 2. I've done everything I'm supposed to and just not seeing a lot of improvement, so I figured maybe my filtration or some other physical setup problem might be the real issue.

I am sure that created nothing but confusion for everyone. If there is a way to combine threads, that would be wonderful. (I still don't know the best forum category to put all this.)

Here are ALL my test results since day 1:

1) Oct 7 (High 91, Low 77)
3:34 CYA 55 Ph 7.2, FC 0, CC.5 +4 gals 10% added to raise FC to 17
4:04 FC 3.5, CC .5 +3 gal, 1 qt to FC 17
5:22 FC 10.5 CC .5, +2 qt, 2 c to FC 17
6:40 FC 13, +1 gal 1 c to FC 24
(after TFP forum experts recommended a higher shock level of 24, & said don't bother testing CC right now)
7:52 FC 16, +3qt, 1 c to FC 24
9:03 FC 16.5, +3qt to FC 24
Total daytime loss: 39.5 CC

2) Oct 8 (Hi 90 Lo 77)
8:16 16 FC, +3qt to FC 24 (8 FC overnight loss)
10:00 16 FC, +3qt to 24
11:38 19 FC, +1 qt, 3c to 24
1:44 19.5 FC, +1qt, 3c to 24 (Pressure 14, w/ Vac on)
3:00 20 FC, +1qt, 2c to 24 (Pressure 20, No vac)
4:45 20 FC, +1qt 10%, +1c, 6oz 12.5% (used only 12.5% from this point forward) (P 20, No V)
6:43 21.5 FC, +3c, 1oz to 24 (P 20, No Vac)
8:50 21 FC, +3c, 6oz to 24 (P 20, no vac)
Total daytime losses 31 FC (P 20 no vac)

3)Oct 9 (91/73)
7:44 19.5 FC, +1qt, 1 c, 5oz to 24 (4.5 FC overnight loss) (P 20, no vac)
9:45 20 FC, +1qt, 1 c to 24 (P 20, no vac)
11:47 21 FC +3c, 6oz to 24 (P 13, w/ Vac)
2:20 17.5 FC +2qt, 1oz to 24 *After swimming & brushing walls, floor, skimmer, steps, etc with steel brush under water for couple hours
4:20 18FC +1qt, 3c, 4 oz (P 13 w/ vac) *backwashed!
6:31 18 FC +1qt, 3c, 4zo (P 12 w/ vac)
8:18 19 FC, +1qt 2c, (P 18, no vac)
Total Daily losses 30.5

From this point forward I'll just put time, FC level, filter pressure, total daily losses and special notes. I added chlorine to reach 24 after each reading:

4)Oct 10 (86/72)
7:50 19 FC, 18 No Vac (5 overnight loss)
10:22 21 FC, 10 w/ Vac
12:22 19 FC, 10 w/ vac *water low, put hose in pool for couple of hours
3:00 17 FC, 19.5 no vac
5:00 20 FC
8:20 19 FC
Total daytime losses: 24

5)Oct 11 (82/66)
7:59 19 FC, 18 no vac (5 overnight loss)
11:33 20 FC, 18 no vac
4:42 17.5 FC, 18 no vac
8:24 18 FC
Total day losses: 16.5

6)Oct 12 (88/66)
7:50 20 FC, 18 no vac (4.0 overnight loss)
10:15 21 FC *ran out of chlorine, so added more about an hour later
2:48 too low on R-0871 to test, added 1 qt 3 c total guess
8:00 17 FC, 10 w/ vac
Total daily losses unknown due to issues above

7)Oct 13 (90/75)
8:14 18FC (6 overnight loss)
*Approx noon- Hubs got the stuck pool light out & it was GROSS behind there. Scrubbed out thoroughly, vacuumed
4:27 15FC
10:05 17.5 FC
Total daily losses: 15.5

8)Oct 14 (93/77)
8:15 16FC (8 overnight loss)
10:01 20.5 FC
12:40 19.5 FC
5:20 19.0 FC, 18 no vac
8:11 18.5 FC
Total daytime loss 18.5

9)Oct 15 (79/57) *sudden temp drop
8:08 18.5 (5.5 overnight loss)
2:58 16.5, 11 w/ vac
8:29 16.5
Total day loss 20.510)Oct 16 (63/55) *much cooler
8:10 19FC (5.0 overnight loss)
2:47 20FC, 11 w/ vac
8:22 19 FC
Total day loss 9

11)Oct 17 (64/55) *much cooler
8:06 20FC, 11 w/ vac (4.0 overnight loss)
2:20 19.5FC
8:11 20 FC
Total day losses 8.5

12)Oct 18 (72/57) *much cooler
8:09 20.5FC, 11 w/ vac (3.5 overnight loss)
12:26 21FC
8:05 19.5FC
Total Day loss 7.5

13)Oct 19 (81/68)
7:25 20, 11 w/ vac, (4 overnight loss)
3:16 19FC
8:39 20FC
Total Day Loss 9.5

14)Oct 20 (72/64)
7:25 19.5FC, 18 no vac (4.5 overnight loss, *after heavy rain all night)
11:49 20FC *after lots more rain
8:39 19.5FC
Total Day Loss 8.5

15)Oct 21 (73/61)
7:33 20.5 FC (3.5 overnight loss)
4:03 16FC, .5 CC *first CC test since day 1
9:20 19.5
Total Day Loss 10.5

16)Oct 22 (68/54)
8:00 20.5 FC (3.5 overnight loss)
2:05 20FC, filter 17.5 no vac *after complete filter disassemble, clean, new DE
8:28 20FC
Total Day Loss 8.0

17)Oct 23 (64/61)
8:10 18 FC (6.0 overnight loss, after heavy rain all night), .5 CC
1:37 20.5 FC, filter 10 w/ vac
8:20 19.5FC
Total Day Loss 8.0

18)Oct 24 (69/60)
7:30 20FC (4 overnight loss)
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Texas Splash said:
- Algae in the water (transparent stages included); although at this rate I would be surprised
- Compromised filter (should be ruled-out from recent cleaning and inspection)
- Bad reagents (highly doubt it though)
- Inaccurate testing (doubtful, but if you have any concerns let us know); this includes the CYA test which has much to do with the SLAM level and FC loss
- Foreign material introduced to the water. (This is the main one that concerns me. Just about anything like those pool store products added before, or even with local heavy rains run-off of dirt or compromised water that could've gotten into the water. Those are sometimes very hard to determine.)
- The light niche.. refresh my memory. It looks like it was sealed quite some time ago huh? Just packed with a bunch of epoxy or some kind of filler? Yet it still looks discolored around the edges. Am I missing anything else about that niche?
Click to expand...

*Can't see any traces of algae. (I know it's not always visible) But I was seeing it all summer long, even the day after scrubbing, shocking, pool store algaecides, etc, before I found TFP)
*Filter looks great, and I spent several hours getting it sparkly!
*ReAgents all new, direct from TFTestKits
*I think my tests are good. I definitely want to retest CYA, but waiting for it to stop raining!
*Foreign material- Yes! Caterpillars, frogs, leaves, pine needles, bees, moths, crape myrtle flowers. I skim 3-4 times per day. There's ALWAYS something in it. I run a Hayward Navigator XL a lot of the time. There is only one suction pipe, so I can either run the vac or have surface stuff actually circulate towards the skimmer, not both. This is why I'm wondering if circulation isn't an issue. Filter pressure is 17.5 w/o vac running, 11 with vac. We are getting a lot of rain, but runoff is directed away from pool pretty well, so only what falls from the sky ends up in the pool. But we weren't living here during Hurricane Harvey last year. Anything could have gotten in it then! I stupidly added plenty of junk products (phosphate removers, algaecides, clarifiers) over last year. No clue what previous owners added.
*The light niche. Yeah, I don't trust it at all. The Google pic is how it looks AFTER cleaning. I am going to try an underwater camera to see if I can get more detail. I can't see all the way to the back from the pool surface. My husband donned a wet suit and cleaned it out with many different sizes and type of brushes, but it's so lumpy in there. :(
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

Run your OCLT without the VAC attached. Just use your skimmer as you normally would. Just to see if circulation has any issue.
 
Re: Long SLAM, 17 Days & Counting

I will do that, thanks! One other thing- In viewing older posts yesterday I came to realize that the dark spots on my pool bottom, which I've always called, "pennies" are actually rebar rust spots. Can't count them now due to rain, but I'm guessing there are a good dozen. Could this be the reason my SLAM is taking so long? If rebar rust is getting through could other contaminants be seeping through the plaster?
 

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