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Thread: Intelliflo VF Questions

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    Intelliflo VF Questions

    As part of the pool remodel, I am considering the intelliflo vf to reduce my utility bill. I read quite a few posts but have come out more confused so I definitely need some assistance.

    Here is what I have -
    * 30,000 gal ig outdoor gunite pool
    * 1.5 in pipes and a sand filter
    * 1 hp hayward SP-2807-X10
    * pump runs almost 24 hrs/day =~ 1kwh * 24 * .12c = $2.88 but my utility bill makes me suspect the pump is consuming more
    * polaris cleaner /w booster pump
    * approx 50 ft of pipe before the pump
    * residential pool with a 2-5 swimmers


    What I need help with is determining
    * the minimum number of turnovers I need
    * what are the cost savings going with the intelliflo vf?
    I have read that the VF can consume as little as 200w/hr but at how long would one turnover take?
    * The intelliflo uses 2 in pipes, would there be an issue connecting it to 1.5 inlet



    Thanks

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    I'm in the process of designing a pool and have done a small amount of research on the intelliflo series. So I'm only partially competent...

    A quick set of questions that will impact the more learned folk here, however...

    Are there any water features (anything that impacts gallons per minute)
    Is there a spa?
    Do you have solar panels?

    Onto your questions. The turnover is based on your desired level of filtering. You hear a lot of people say 1x per day is enough, and others say 2-3 times is a minimum. <shrug>

    The vf can get down into the 100s of watts, but the flow really drops, as well as max pressure achievable (max head). If you have solar, water features, or spa, you'll not be able to benefit from those and simultaneously achieve that power consumption. As a total WILD GUESS -- the 1.5" pipe will impair your chances of running at a really low speed.

    check these out...

    look at page 7 of http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/intelliflovfDS.pdf
    and page 53 of http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/IntelliFloOm.pdf

    On the 2nd power cruve you can achieve 40 gpm at 600w with a 32-ish head. That's a 12.5 hr turnover time for your volume.

    Turnover = 30000 gallons / (x gallons per minute) / (60 m/hr).... on your calculator, divide 30000/60/x = 500/x

    I'm sure one of the more experienced folk can add more -- good luck
    pool building thread... http://www.troublefreepool.com/my-po...re-t18130.html

    13,000g pool in startup phase
    VS-3050 Intelliflo, 420 sq.ft. Cartridge, EasyTouch
    Waiting to be installed: IC 40, solar, urns

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by grasshopah
    As part of the pool remodel, I am considering the intelliflo vf to reduce my utility bill. I read quite a few posts but have come out more confused so I definitely need some assistance.

    Here is what I have -
    * 30,000 gal ig outdoor gunite pool
    * 1.5 in pipes and a sand filter
    * 1 hp hayward SP-2807-X10
    * pump runs almost 24 hrs/day =~ 1kwh * 24 * .12c = $2.88 but my utility bill makes me suspect the pump is consuming more
    * polaris cleaner /w booster pump
    * approx 50 ft of pipe before the pump
    * residential pool with a 2-5 swimmers


    What I need help with is determining
    * the minimum number of turnovers I need
    * what are the cost savings going with the intelliflo vf?
    I have read that the VF can consume as little as 200w/hr but at how long would one turnover take?
    * The intelliflo uses 2 in pipes, would there be an issue connecting it to 1.5 inlet



    Thanks
    Most pools need between 1-3 turnovers per day with 2 being the average during the summer. You need to experiment some to see how low you can go without compromising the pool water.

    Cost savings are dependent on a lot of factors including RPM/GPM setting and your plumbing design.

    You can use 1.5" pipes into an Intelliflo with an adapter. Do you have multiple 1.5" pipe runs on the suction and/or return side?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Thanks for the reply Optoman and Mark.

    No I do not have any water features. I do have a polaris pool cleaner /w a booster pump.

    I am confused about your statement on solar. Did you mean to refer to solar PV or solar heating? I have neither but may consider solar PV sometime in the future.

    Mark, I have two inlets with a skimmer and the main drain on one inlet and the far skimmer on the other inlet.
    I have two outlets that feed six returns.

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by grasshopah
    I am confused about your statement on solar. Did you mean to refer to solar PV or solar heating? I have neither but may consider solar PV sometime in the future.
    When it comes to plumbing questions, solar heating (water flowing through panels) is all that matters. Where the electricity comes from doesn't matter.
    --paulr
    who is getting solar PV shortly, but relies on a solar cover for heat retention in the pool
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Using your setup, I modeled three cases, your existing pump, the Intelliflo and a two speed pump similar to your current pump but in two speed form.

    So your current pump should have about a 9 hour turnover and use close to 1100 watts. So the cost for one turn per day would be $36/month. For 24 hours/day, it would be $96/month.

    The Intelliflo operating at 900 RPM would have a turnover of 24 hours and use 117 Watts for a cost of $10/month. If you need two turns per day, the pump would use 414 watts for a cost of $35/month.

    A two speed at low speed would have a turnover of about 18 hours and use 285 watts for a cost of $19/month.

    For one turnover per day, the break even, assuming $1500 VF cost, would be about 60 months. For two turnovers per day, about 40 months. I'm not sure how many months per year your run your pump but it could take some time to pay for itself and if more than 10 years, it may never pay for itself. Of course these payoff periods shorten with higher energy rates so that could change.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    mas985, Thanks for all that effort - just the type of information I was looking for.

    Another question -

    which is preferable one turn in 9 hrs or 1 turn in 24 hrs?

  8. Back To Top    #8
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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

    1 turn in 9 hours has the advantage that the skimmers would probably work better than 1 turn in 24 hours since the flow rate would be so low. However, 1 turn in 24 hours has the advantage that the pool is constantly mixed with chemicals and because of the lower flow rate will use much less energy for the turn.

    If the single turn in 24 hours has good enough skimmer action, then that is what I would do. During leaf fall, you may need to speed it up some for a little better cleaning.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    The VS-SVRS and VF models have timers so you can change speeds a couple times a day for an hour to high and get good skimming results, then go back to low speed for regular filtering.

    Scott
    PoolGuyNJ
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    The VS-SVRS and VF models have timers so you can change speeds a couple times a day for an hour to high and get good skimming results, then go back to low speed for regular filtering.

    Scott
    PoolGuyNJ
    Does this require a separate controller, or is the timer part of the interface on the pump itself?
    20K gal IG plaster pool, Manually chlorinated with 6% bleach, 1.5 HP Sta-Rite Dura-Glas II pump, Pentair FNS Plus 48 DE filter, Polaris 280

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    The timer is in the two models I stated. It is NOT in the VS-3050, just the VS-SVRS and VF Intellifo pumps. The menu, given the pumps' large feature sets, is easy to navigate but setting time and speeds is a little less user friendly and will likely require some manual reading, a task many loath to do before calling for service. Good thing the manual is fairly well written.

    Scott
    PoolGuyNJ
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    mas985, I have been thinking and that usually means more questions!

    Your model says it takes 9hrs/turn. My pool has 1.5 inch pipes so that means 56 gal/min. So does that mean I am attempting
    to push more water than the pipes are rated for? ( I understand water flow should not exceed 45gpm). Could that explain the bubbles I see in the return?

    I came across a dual speed variation of my existing pump - the sp2607x102s hayward super pump. Its priced from the high 300s and may offer a solution as the ROI is much better than the intelliflo. What do you think?

  13. Back To Top    #13
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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    First, 1.5" pipes can handle well more the 56 gal/min but to keep head loss low and to avoid water hammer in the pipes, you will see flow rate recommendations sometimes less than that. Also, keep in mind that since you have two pipes on suction and return only half the flow rate is going through each pipe. About the only place you will have full flow rate is in the pad so you might consider going to 2" just on the pad since your changing out the pump anyway. Also, if you look at the water hammer recommendations I have in the Hydraulics 101 sticky, I rate 1.5" pipe at 56 gal/min but either way it is not really a hard limit or rating but more like a suggestion. Nothing serious will happen if you exceed it.

    The Super Pump is a good pump and its very hard to find a 2 speed pump with as low a BHP as the Super Pump (1 BHP). BTW, the two speed pump I modeled before was that exact pump. Given your plumbing and the fact your energy rates are still fairly low, the Super Pump might be a pretty good choice.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    Using your setup, I modeled three cases, your existing pump, the Intelliflo and a two speed pump similar to your current pump but in two speed form.

    So your current pump should have about a 9 hour turnover and use close to 1100 watts. So the cost for one turn per day would be $36/month. For 24 hours/day, it would be $96/month.

    The Intelliflo operating at 900 RPM would have a turnover of 24 hours and use 117 Watts for a cost of $10/month. If you need two turns per day, the pump would use 414 watts for a cost of $35/month.

    A two speed at low speed would have a turnover of about 18 hours and use 285 watts for a cost of $19/month.

    For one turnover per day, the break even, assuming $1500 VF cost, would be about 60 months. For two turnovers per day, about 40 months. I'm not sure how many months per year your run your pump but it could take some time to pay for itself and if more than 10 years, it may never pay for itself. Of course these payoff periods shorten with higher energy rates so that could change.
    Interesting model Ive read many of your attachments and as a solar owner myself I really enjoyed the solar efficiency data info.

    Im curious as to how you are determining 2 things

    1. What the flow rate is at 900 RPM? It will vary from pool to pool based on filter pressure, turns, and plumbing length- will it not?
    2. That 117 watts will equal 900 RPM wouldn't that vary form pool to pool as well?

    I have a variable speed pump myself, solar, a spa, and run a variety of suction side and return based cleaning devices and after only a month and a half of ownership Ive determined that hydrodynamic performance vs absolute savings is the real payoff in upgrading- but thats me.

    Thanks for posting great stuff for us to read.

    Davegvg
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand Zebrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Solar Panels/Barracuda G3/ BBB

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Yes, both flow rate and wattage depend on the plumbing design and RPM setting. Which is why I use a full head loss model that I developed a couple of years ago. I calibrated the model with my own plumbing as well as several other pool owners who where so kind to help with the process. The model can use either the Darcy-Weisbach equations, which I use most of the time, or the Hazen-Williams approximations. Usually, I can get fairly close by just understanding the layout of the plumbing and the equipment. The biggest unknown is usually the friction factors for the fittings since most people don't know what fittings they have underground so I use some of the calibration factors that I found for my pool and seem to be typical valves for other pools as well. I can also correct for any additonal errors there may be if the filter PSI is known since this is a fairly good indicator of return head loss. Usually, I get within +- 5 GPM since the model seems to be somewhat forgiving of the exact plumbing configuration. I believe that this is due to the fact that errors can occur in either direction so most cancel out.

    In addtion, the Intelliflo has a unique Watts, RPM and GPM relationship. So for every RPM/GPM value pair, there is only one watt value. So if you know two of the parameters, you automatically know the third. This can be useful for those with the VS pump. They can set the RPM, read off the Watts, and look up the GPM from a table. This can be done without knowing anything at all about the plumbing.

    As for the performance/cost of the Intelliflo, yes it will probably have the lowest energy use of any pump. However, it may not have the lowest lifetime cost of any pump. Because of the intial cost and fixed life of the pump, for those people who have fairly low energy rates, a two speed pump may end up being more cost effective. In grasshopah's case, the lifetime cost was pretty close to being the same within a few hundred dollars but it does depend on the run time over the year as well. Given that and the fact that the Intelliflo has a lot more components that can fail which are very expensive to replace, I thought it would be a better choice to just go with a two speed pump. But either way it wouldn't be a bad choice.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    With Intelliflows, when using 1-1/2" plumbing, reduce the max RPM from 3450 to 2400. At 3540, she'll try to push over 125 GPM which is way too much. If the skimmers or main drain were plumbed with flex or black poly, they can collapse due to the suction. I don't know if Jandy E-Pumps, or Hayward's multi speed pumps have this feature.

    My generalized rule is that if there is 1-1/2" plumbing, don't go more than a 1-1/2 HP pump.

    Scott
    PoolGuyNJ
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Actually at full speed, the flow rate won't exceed much more than 83 GPM because the head loss increases to 81 feet of head. With that head loss, I wouldn't advise running at full speed but it may still be possible if there is not any flex pipe near the pump.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    mas, you out thunk me again. When I quoted the 125 GPM, that wasn't meant through 1-1/2" pipe.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    Yes, both flow rate and wattage depend on the plumbing design and RPM setting. Which is why I use a full head loss model that I developed a couple of years ago. I calibrated the model with my own plumbing as well as several other pool owners who where so kind to help with the process. The model can use either the Darcy-Weisbach equations, which I use most of the time, or the Hazen-Williams approximations. Usually, I can get fairly close by just understanding the layout of the plumbing and the equipment. The biggest unknown is usually the friction factors for the fittings since most people don't know what fittings they have underground so I use some of the calibration factors that I found for my pool and seem to be typical valves for other pools as well. I can also correct for any additonal errors there may be if the filter PSI is known since this is a fairly good indicator of return head loss. Usually, I get within +- 5 GPM since the model seems to be somewhat forgiving of the exact plumbing configuration. I believe that this is due to the fact that errors can occur in either direction so most cancel out.

    In addtion, the Intelliflo has a unique Watts, RPM and GPM relationship. So for every RPM/GPM value pair, there is only one watt value. So if you know two of the parameters, you automatically know the third. This can be useful for those with the VS pump. They can set the RPM, read off the Watts, and look up the GPM from a table. This can be done without knowing anything at all about the plumbing.

    As for the performance/cost of the Intelliflo, yes it will probably have the lowest energy use of any pump. However, it may not have the lowest lifetime cost of any pump. Because of the intial cost and fixed life of the pump, for those people who have fairly low energy rates, a two speed pump may end up being more cost effective. In grasshopah's case, the lifetime cost was pretty close to being the same within a few hundred dollars but it does depend on the run time over the year as well. Given that and the fact that the Intelliflo has a lot more components that can fail which are very expensive to replace, I thought it would be a better choice to just go with a two speed pump. But either way it wouldn't be a bad choice.

    Can you post the lookup table you speak or tell me where I could find it so I can take a look?

    My Epump gives me watts and rpm, and using said table I should be able to derive flow....

    Im curious to see how the lookup table compares to the flowmeter readings I get.

    Davegvg
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand Zebrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Solar Panels/Barracuda G3/ BBB

  20. Back To Top    #20
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    Re: Intelliflo VF Questions

    Dave,

    Originally, I created a table only for the Intelliflo. With the Intelliflo, I have two sets of data so I can check them against each other. For the EPump, I would have to rely soley upon the California Energy Commision data. I use a three point quadratic fit to GPM, RPM and Watts which then can be used to determine any combination of the points. Attached is a spreadsheet with a first cut at the table for the EPump but I really have a way to confirm if it is correct so let me know if it is close or not. After the first of the year, the CEC is planning to add a third curve measurement to their dataset so the accuracy should improve some.

    See here for the spreadsheet.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump and Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, 1/2 HP 2sp pump, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater, ThePoolCleaner

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