Sequestrant vs. CYA Bound Chlorine

[calinb]

Aluminum flocs (sulfates or polychlorides) are difficult to work with as they have very specific pH requirements. Also, you can “over floc” the water by adding too much and that can cause cloudiness as the floc remains as a fine suspension instead of a dense agglomeration of particulates. This is one of the many reasons TFP cautions against the use of flocculants - they have few upsides and LOTS of downsides.

The only flocculant I've tried was the aluminum chloride Ez-Clor Drop Out. I followed the instructions, which said best results are from pH 7.5 to 8.0 so I adjusted my pH up from the <= 6.8 post-MM level to 7.6. 14 oz is the EZ-Clor prescribed normal dose for my pool but the instructions said "to speed settling time, you may double or triple Drop Out dosage" so I added 32 oz (2.3 times normal dose). Again, I didn't notice any improvement in particles size (filter efficacy) or drop time.

I had just about the same level of cloudiness when I rescued this pool, but most of it cleared relatively quickly with just the sand filter and I only had to use DE at the very end to put some "polish" on the water. This time, even DE as a filter enhancer seems to have met its match after, admittedly, removing a quite a bit of white stuff. What's remains must be very small. Maybe it will return the water to its previous crystal clear state eventually, but it seems like it will take a very, very long time (and lots of electricity). At least I'm wasting less water now with the backflush period about every two days.:lol:

It sounds to me like your water is essentially clouded by a suspension of fine particulates either caused by the Metal Magic, the flocculant or both. Your sand filter, by itself, is incapable of efficiently filtering this stuff out. The clarifier will hopefully work (they may be sending you their chitosan based clarifier) but DE in the filter will do the same job.

At this point, it doesn’t matter anymore (vacuum to waste or backwash) as you’ll be sending water out of your pool no matter what you use.

The 48 hour drop period is too long and CC climbs, requiring a SLAM. Yes--EXO is the chitosan clarifier and I'll be trying it. The goal is to enable the sand filter to do the job, rather than dropping the particles. The ProTeam plan for me is to start with their SpaPure Oxidizing Shock, shortly followed by Filter Magic, and then the EXO and then repeat EXO or change clarifiers as indicated by the results.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The only flocculant I've tried was the aluminum chloride Ez-Clor Drop Out. I followed the instructions, which said best results are from pH 7.5 to 8.0 so I adjusted my pH up from the <= 6.8 post-MM level to 7.6. 14 oz is the EZ-Clor prescribed normal dose for my pool but the instructions said "to speed settling time, you may double or triple Drop Out dosage" so I added 32 oz (2.3 times normal dose). Again, I didn't notice any improvement in particles size (filter efficacy) or drop time.

I had just about the same level of cloudiness when I rescued this pool, but most of it cleared relatively quickly with just the sand filter and I only had to use DE at the very end to put some "polish" on the water. This time, even DE as a filter enhancer seems to have met its match after, admittedly, removing a quite a bit of white stuff. What's remains must be very small. Maybe it will return the water to its previous crystal clear state eventually, but it seems like it will take a very, very long time (and lots of electricity). At least I'm wasting less water now with the backflush period about every two days.:lol:



The 48 hour drop period is too long and CC climbs, requiring a SLAM. Yes--EXO is the chitosan clarifier and I'll be trying it. The goal is to enable the sand filter to do the job, rather than dropping the particles. The ProTeam plan for me is to start with their SpaPure Oxidizing Shock, shortly followed by Filter Magic, and then the EXO and then repeat EXO or change clarifiers as indicated by the results.

Not to sound pedantic, but I think most of what they are selling you is unnecessary. Obviously it’s your pool and you should care for it how you think is best but there’s no good reason to add oxidizing shock (MPS) to your pool or the “filter magic” which nothing more than acids (hydrochloric and phosphoric acids) plus some acid stable surfactants. They’re basically assuming your filter media is coated with scale and that it needs removal but there’s no proof that’s the problem. The oxidizing shock with help destroy their metal sequestrant.

One thing you haven’t possibly tried doing yet is to deep clean your sand filter. Assuming that you have not opened up the filter in a while, you could have channeling in the sand media which will essentially render the filter ineffective. No amount of backwashing will fix channeling. You need to open up the sand filter and deep clean it while breaking up the sand clumps. I would attempt to deep clean the filter before adding all those chemicals to my pool.

Your call obviously.

 

[calinb]

Not to sound pedantic, but I think most of what they are selling you is unnecessary. Obviously it’s your pool and you should care for it how you think is best but there’s no good reason to add oxidizing shock (MPS) to your pool or the “filter magic” which nothing more than acids (hydrochloric and phosphoric acids) plus some acid stable surfactants. They’re basically assuming your filter media is coated with scale and that it needs removal but there’s no proof that’s the problem. The oxidizing shock with help destroy their metal sequestrant.

One thing you haven’t possibly tried doing yet is to deep clean your sand filter. Assuming that you have not opened up the filter in a while, you could have channeling in the sand media which will essentially render the filter ineffective. No amount of backwashing will fix channeling. You need to open up the sand filter and deep clean it while breaking up the sand clumps. I would attempt to deep clean the filter before adding all those chemicals to my pool.

Your call obviously.

Thanks for all your help in this saga, Matt.

I just received a tech support email from Pro Team and Kevin did recommend new sand, because its age is unknown (at least 4 years and it could even be 25 years or more--I'll try to ask the previous owner sometime). I've never had the lid off the filter and, unless I break something, there's no cost in inspecting it and stirring up any channeling. I've read here and other places that some people say sand never really needs replacement. I'll pop the cover off of it today.

I wondered about using oxidizers, because chlorine is an oxidizer itself and I just SLAMed the pool because of the CC blip after the 48 hours settling time. The filter is still not clearing the cloud any faster. It may clear eventually, given my current filter performance, but I'm sure it will be a time period of weeks rather than days and I'm already approaching the 2-week mark. Still, if my stains are significantly diminished once I can finally see the bottom of the pool, I'll be happy. Draining the pool to acid wash stains is not an sane option for me but I'm sure glad I decided to do this at the end of the pool season. Water temp is now down to 65 so my family and I don't feel like we are missing anything!

ProTeam is being very helpful and generous with their tech support time and products so I'm inclined to follow their advice precisely, but I still appreciate your advice so I can make more informed decisions. The fact is that even when the pool clears, cause and effect is impossible to establish (time vs. various treatments and chems, etc.)!

On a side note, I decided to test my Fe+2/Fe+3 test kit with distilled water. The color was the same as our spring water, house water, pool water, pool hydrant fill water, etc.--about 0.2 or 0.3 in my interpolation estimate. Of course it should have read 0.0 but the test sample did have some color to it, as was the result with all the other tests. 0.3 is the lowest comparison color provided in the kit, other than white for 0.0 so all bets are off again as to how much Fe we really have in our water. Maybe the Anatek professional testing service we had done earlier in the year was correct at 4.4 ppm, but based on the modest staining around the household, I still don't think it's THAT high!

-Cal

 

[Swampwoman]

Hi Cal. Thought I’d check back in quick though I am largely mia these days

For future reference, please avoid SLAM Process unless absolutely necessary when dealing with metals and sequestrant. Same will both possibly precipitate Metal, causing more staining, and simultaneously oxidize all that sequestrant you just bought and applied.

If your filter normally works fine, the chitosan should be fine as a filter aid, as would a bit of DE. If after constant filtering with those aids, your clarity hasn’t changed in say, 72 more hours, then I might consider flocking with alum if you’re still thinking about that, but less is more at this point for both you and the pool, I suspect.

As a side note, if you do floc and find it a smooth process (eg if you try it, I’d only do the alum type that drops and is vac’d to waste) the side benefit is that it will remove a fair bit, if not all, of your iron as well as any sequestrant that has broken down into its byproduct of po4.

I did a floc with alum last year. I’ve been able to keep my water iron-free (I use soft water for refills) and ergo also sequestrant-Free this last season. It’s a pita treatment and not one you want to do often as it adds sulphates to your water, but sometimes it’s worth the hassle.

Fingers crossed you get some clarity soon.

 

[duraleigh]

+1 what joyful said. Deep cleaning a filter is often neglected and often yields rewarding results. It should be a bi-annual routine.

TFP does not suggest the use of flocs. They just don't seem to be consistently effective and often have some negative side effects.

 

[calinb]

Hi Cal. Thought I’d check back in quick though I am largely mia these days

Thanks for dropping by again. We've missed ya'!

For future reference, please avoid SLAM Process unless absolutely necessary when dealing with metals and sequestrant. Same will both possibly precipitate Metal, causing more staining, and simultaneously oxidize all that sequestrant you just bought and applied.
I did the SLAM over a week after the MM treatment, which is consistent with the MM directions. After 48 hours of sediment settling time, CC was high and climbing and I'm sure I would've have more of cloud in the water very soon.

If your filter normally works fine, the chitosan should be fine as a filter aid, as would a bit of DE. If after constant filtering with those aids, your clarity hasn’t changed in say, 72 more hours, then I might consider flocking with alum if you’re still thinking about that, but less is more at this point for both you and the pool, I suspect.

I've used DE so far and I'm sure it's captured most of the cloud particles. It has grown clearer. (I can see all the steps to various degrees). What remains now is not clearing or clearing very, very slowly (I'm at about two weeks now). I'll deep clean my sand and perhaps the chitosan will capture somewhat finer particles than DE too.

As a side note, if you do floc and find it a smooth process (eg if you try it, I’d only do the alum type that drops and is vac’d to waste) the side benefit is that it will remove a fair bit, if not all, of your iron as well as any sequestrant that has broken down into its byproduct of po4.

I'm holding off on ordering Alum for now, but at least I did vacuum quite a bit of it to waste after the 48 hour settling period before. If I vacuum blindly, I could vacuum after say a 24 hour settling period and probably not get the CC climbing without circulation.

I did a floc with alum last year. I’ve been able to keep my water iron-free (I use soft water for refills) and ergo also sequestrant-Free this last season. It’s a pita treatment and not one you want to do often as it adds sulphates to your water, but sometimes it’s worth the hassle.

Fingers crossed you get some clarity soon.

Thanks and yes! I'm looking forward to inspecting for stains to see if they've faded, hopefully soon.

- - - Updated - - -

+1 what joyful said. Deep cleaning a filter is often neglected and often yields rewarding results. It should be a bi-annual routine.

TFP does not suggest the use of flocs. They just don't seem to be consistently effective and often have some negative side effects.

Well about all I can say for the EZ-Clor aluminum chloride Drop Out solution that tried is it didn't seem to do or change anything. I guess all risks considered, a neutral result is good one for a floc!

From my online research aluminum sulfate (Alum) is the more commonly used compound for a flocculant, however. Still, I'm avoiding it for now.

 

[calinb]

I'm worried about taking the lid off of my old 24" American Sandpiper sand filter to deep clean the sand until after I close the pool. Given its age, I think it's likely that the o-ring will be damaged in the process and I'll need a new one. Making the o-ring replacement even more difficult and potentially costly, it seems there are at least two different thicknesses (cross sectional diameters) of o-rings used on the 24" Sandpiper. One of them is reasonably priced at around 6 bucks and the other one is about $45! They are only slightly different in CS diameter. I need to inspect the old o-ring to determine which one to order.

I bought some Polyfill in town and stuffed my skimmer basket with it last night. By morning, the water was somewhat clearer (the first time in many days) so I put my 'bot in the pool to keep the water stirred up for the skimmer (drain valve off). Tonight I even stuffed Polyfill into the 'bot's bag through the bottom intake slots. It's still pumping water just fine, but at a somewhat lower rate.

At night with the light on in the pool, I can see smoke-like wisps of white moving in the water. I can now just barely make out the Aquabot at the bottom of the 8 foot deep end. It's been over two weeks since the MM treatment now.

 

[kimkats]

I have put a call into someone who may know which o-ring to get as a back up. Hoping it is the cheaper one!!!

 

[calinb]

Thanks so much for your help, kimkats! I was going by the two o-ring parts listed here:
https://www.poolpartsonline.com/p-35935-american-sandpiper-filter-parts.aspx

Maybe that's not even my filter, because I measured my filter tank at 24" dia. and those o-rings have an ID of 17.73". So even the OD of even the larger one would be 17.73" + 2 x .535 = 18.8".

Maybe this is the one I need:
https://www.allpartspoolandspa.com/product/o-ring-pentair-american-products-sandpiper-24-tank-o-93/

Of course I'd be happy to inspect my filter and provide any other identifying features or even photos.

I'm sorry about how this long thread has evolved and, though related to my OP, the subjects keep changing. I started by asking about CYA/chlorine levels vs. sequestrant and it's morphed to my stain removal treatment, iron levels and testing, flocculants, and now my filter mechanics (and probably a few other issues that I've forgotton...ha). With a pool, it seems that everything (including any pool owner action) affects everything else!

I don't want to start new threads because forum members like you keep checking in on my progress here and they keep helping me!


BTW, If I need to post more photos, will joining the forum as a contributor give me more photo space here? I was planning to join in the next fiscal year, but I'd also hate to have to delete my previous photos to post a couple new ones and could just become a TFP contributor now instead.

 

[kimkats]

It is best to keep your "story" all together like you have been doing. It really helps us see the whole pic. (4 pages is nothing so no worries!)

Pics-yeah it might be time to go ahead and pony up for the membership so we can see more pics. I am hoping the help will be at work tomorrow to answer about the o-ring.

Kim

 

[InyoRob]

The o-ring for a 24" American Sandpiper is part number AP550017.

 

[calinb]

The o-ring for a 24" American Sandpiper is part number AP550017.

Thanks! I decided to risk removing the lid and found something other than a simple o-ring. My filter has a triangular seal, 0.35" tall (vertex to vertex) and 0.36" wide (flat to vertex). Will the part you linked fit and seal without a backing or some other part? I noticed in the description it says 23.712" X 0.312" and it looks like it's a simple round cross section o-ring.

My o-ring wasn't perfect but I lubed it upon reassembly and it's not leaking. I'd like to order a new part for next time.

 

[calinb]

I removed my Sandpiper lid and deep cleaned the sand. The lid wouldn't budge by hand and the seal is right there in the gap between the tank and lid, offering no way to pry without contacting the seal. Rather than prying, I gently tapped one of these narrow wedge shaped nylon pry bar tips straight into the crack and seal, around and around the perimeter until the lid freed up and it didn't appear to damage the seal at all.

https://www.harborfreight.com/nylon-pry-bar-installer-kit-4-pc-63594.html

I found no evidence of channeling in the sand. I gently probed the sand with a running garden hose and kneaded it by hand, staying above the laterals. I really don't see any good reason to replace the sand. Manually removing the old sand and washing through some kind of screen sieve and then filter fabric would probably yield the same benefits as new sand but I didn't want to spend to time to do it right now.

 

[calinb]

After nearly 3 weeks of cloudy water, I'm pleased to report that the "care package" I received from Pro Team cleared the pool literally overnight! After deep cleaning my sand filter (as described in the previous post), I received the package from Pro Team the very next day and followed the instructions I received from Kevin in their tech support department. His advice included first treating the pool with 4.4 lbs of their Oxidizing Shock. It was late and dark so went to bed with the pump distributing the Oxidizing Shock for the night.

The next morning the pool looked the same and I followed the "long" treatment instructions printed on the back of the Pro Team Filter Magic bottle. The quicker treatment relies on putting the Filter Magic into the pool but I figured I'd put it right where it counts (and keep the extra chemicals out of the pool too). Even though I'd just deep cleaned my sand filter the previous day to no avail, I removed the filter's lid again and dumped a quart of Filter Magic into the sand. Then I let just a little bit of water drain out to the backwash port (without running the pump) by switching the multiport valve to "backwash." It was my idea to let a little water out to get the Filter Magic to drain deeper into the sand. Then I put the lid back on and let it sit. After ~8 hours, I backwashed all kinds of white stuff out of the filter until the water ran clear and then further sent about the same amount of white water to waste in the "rinse" valve position. I don't know if this white was from the MM "cloud" or DE (fully clogged DE?) but it didn't come out of the filter with just water and mechanical (my hands) deep cleaning; it took the strong acid (and whatever else is in Filter Magic) to get it out. After rinsing it clear (as clear was my water could get at the time), I ran the filter normally overnight. By the next morning, for the first time in nearly three weeks I could clearly see the drain cover in the deep end! So cleaning with Filter Magic apparently accomplished a level of clean that I could not achieve with just a garden hose and my hands and DE and polyfill was going to take weeks, if ever, to fully clear the pool! After clearing the nearly 3-week old white cloud from my pool in only 8 hours, I'm pretty sure I'll be applying Filter Magic directly to my sand filter whenever I deep clean it in the future (16 to 32 oz is the recommend dose directly to the filter sand). It all gets sent to waste with this method too so none of it ends up in the pool.

Then I added a quart of Pro Magic EXO Clarifier (it's the chitan stuff) to the pool. 24 hours later, my pool was absolutely sparkly again and no more wisps or fingers of white particles appeared visible at night in front of the pool light.

Now onto my update on the motivation behind all the above trouble--the stains!

The 8 quarts of Metal Magic I added to the pool did remove almost all of my dark gray stains, but the lighter tan stains remain unchanged and they are present on perhaps half of the pool wall and floor surface area to at least some noticeable degree. Also favorable is an improvement in the smoothness of the floor in a couple of places that were previously rough. The Metal Magic stain treatment must've removed quite a bit of calcium scale in these areas.

For the remaining stains, I've tried putting trichlor, vitamin C (crushed under a sponge and tablets) and citric acid directly on the stains and the meager results (imagined?) are not terribly consequential or conclusive. Maybe the stains are just very old and well "set." This pool could very easily be 40 years old, based on what little I know about the family that constructed it. With the vitamin C, I sometimes see a bit of stain darkening (gray added) under the sponge after a 30 minute test, which I've read indicates copper. It's a slight effect and the darkening also seems to go away overnight (perhaps from all the Metal Magic sequestrant in my pool water). On the other hand, 30 minutes of citric acid never seems to produce any effects.

I've also had a Culator Ultra Powerpak 4.0ppm in my pump basket from a week before the Metal Magic treatment (I figured a Culator can't hurt) and the Culator bag might have a very slight blue tint to it when I hold it up to the sun, per the Culator website instructions. It's hard to say, because I don't have a new Culator 4.0 for comparison. It definitely doesn't have any red or yellow tint to it, but could an iron yellow tint cancel a copper blue tint (they are complementary colors) or would the Culator end up with a green shade? Who knows! I do know that the previous owner used plenty of "plus" trichlor in this pool for years with only backwashing and water replacement to remove any of the copper. I also know that the previous owner tried to manage it with sequestrant, because I found a bottle of HEDP-based sequestrant in the pool room.

My CYA is still at only 20 ppm so I've been placing crushed trichlor in a sock in various places on the upper step overnight whenever I need to increase FC. I think the stains on the upper step might be slowly fading away. Again, it's hard to tell.

The water is now 58 degrees and I'm pretty sure it won't see 60+ degrees again until late next spring. I guess I could test with the Jack's stain test kit before I close and then decide if it's worth it to try to squeeze-in some other kind of stain removal process before closing. The Jack's stain test kits are not very expensive, relatively speaking.

 

[calinb]

BTW, you can really see the darker gray and lighter tan stains in the photos of my previous post in this thread:
https://www.troublefreepool.com/thr...und-Chlorine?p=1518012&viewfull=1#post1518012
All of the closeup photos have both colors of stains, but the last closeup (the third photo) really shows the difference between a gray stain (darker) in the upper left corner of the photo and the tan stains (lighter) just about everywhere else. In the first two photos, there are the darker gray stains in the lower right corners of the photos. These gray stains are now gone. The forth photo shows the lighter (tan) stains on the walls mostly to a depth where the walls begin to curve toward the floor. The tan stains also tend not to exist from about halfway up from the light to the water line. Perhaps this is because the tan stains formed while the pool was closed for four years (but covered) and the water level was approximately at the level where the tan stains begin (below the skimmer). Maybe there wasn't enough light for them to form at the bottom. (Algae? Organic?)

 

[kimkats]

Thanks for the update. I am SO happy you have a pool that sparkles again!!! What a journey!

Kim