Issues with pool refurb: am I expecting too much?

Mar 19, 2016
25
westborough ma
We had our 30 year old gunite pool refurbed this year: new plaster (after waterblast since old plaster was painted), new tile, new coping, new decko seal. I don't like any aspect of it. Besides the fact that it leaks (losing 1.5-2 inches a day AFTER initial dive service to fix one leak, still trying to have pool company resolve that), all finishes look much more sloppy than expected. I thought I did all the right things selecting a builder: contacted many of them, got 5 quotes, 3 of them were in the same ballpark. One of these 3 companies was recommended by a local pool service company that has been in business for many decades. The owner and all key personnel of this company all have 30+ years experience. We selected these guys and they seemed very knowledgeable. They were not tying to upsell things and seemed very respectable.

First experience: after removal of the coping stone, the beams looked very rough from being jackhammered. I thought they would refinish the beams to provide a smooth level surface, but instead they just installed the coping using mortar to more or less even things out. The coping is not level, and does not follow the deck line at all. Had the pool company out and they claim this is par for the course; old concrete decking is not going to be level so level stones don't match the decking. I still think it looks really sloppy, but we figured they had a point. They should have recommended the use of narrow coping tiles, rather than the big stones, but we decided to live with it.

Fast forward to tile installation and plaster. Tile looked acceptable until water was filled. In my old pool, when I "filled to the tile line" I did not have to specify what part of the pool I was talking about. The tile line was level (as was the water...). Now, I see the tile line come out above the water in one point and dip below in another. I estimate ~2" difference between highest and lowest point.

Next up: plaster. The finish looks very rough. We were told to brush it twice a day for 2 weeks and expect lots of plaster dust during this period as we were smoothing the plaster. We saw a bit of dust on day 1, nothing after that. No need to clean my filter, the pressure did not go up at all. Did this dry to fast and does that cause the poor finish?

Finally: decko-seal. Had replaced this myself before, and knew there were areas in my old pool where the sand below it had washed away over the years and the decko seal had a tendency to sink and separate from the joints. Pointed out to the installers and asked if they wanted to backfill before they put on the coping stone. They said it was not necessary, they would ensure a good adherenece. Decko seal is now coming off in multiple spots. They will come out to replace these sections, but that is obviously going to look like the patch job it is.

Am I being overly critical? Will post pictures of each issue in separate posts. What would you do? Live with this, or pursue some sort of resolution? I am down ~$25k, and pouring in $200 worth of water every week until the leaks have been fixed.
 
Here are some photos. First the coping. As mentioned, uneven compared to the deck. If this really is the result of the deck not being even but the coping being even (which I doubt given the issues with the tiles) they should have recommended that we use narrower/shorter coping tiles that would allow them to follow the deck. I think it is more the result of an uneven foundation on which they applied the coping. Jackhammering away old coping does not tend to leave a perfectly level surface.... The second picture shows another sloppy aspect: the coping stones they used only came in certain sizes, forcing them to use short pieces for a very unsymmetrical look. The old coping did not look like this, it was symmetrical. Again, looking back they should have used narrower/shorter tiles.

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Final picture shows the poor decko seal job. This is 4 weeks after install...
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Here are some pictures of the tile job. As mentioned, not level at all. First picture shows a spot in the pool where you can see the tile line go over/under the water line. The other 2 pictures show the extremes between highest and lowest point of the tile line. Since these are 3" tiles, I estimate ~ 2" differences across the tile line.

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I'm pretty OCD myself, so I can certainly sympathize with you and I'd probably be doing the same thing if this was my pool. But with that said, I don't think it looks too bad from what you've posted.

The uneven water level at the tile would probably bother me more than anything. But I doubt anyone else would probably even notice. Can you post a pic of the entire pool for reference?
 
I’m usually about the most understanding around here of less than perfect craftsmanship. There is always a range to consider as acceptable.

In this case I’m not satisfied at all with coping not being level. It needs to be leveled with a laser level as it’s being installed. It should have been leveled using mortar to an average height of the deck. Likely your deck isn’t perfectly level anymore so that joint wasn’t going to be perfect but level coping within maybe 1/4”.

Tile probably followed the poor coping job which is also unacceptable. Tile should be leveled with a laser level also. Again I’d say 1/4” of variance would be the most but it should really be less than that.

Mastic should have been backfilled for sure.

Plaster may be the best of the bunch but it’s a little hard to tell. It won’t be perfect.

Overall it’s a redo in my mind for coping, tile and possibly plaster because the tile line plaster area will need redone anyway.

Sorry for your experience. Others will also chime in I’m sure.
 
jeffchap: here are some pictures of the whole pool. I agree that the plaster we will learn to live with, the coping we can deal with, and the deckoseal will be redone. I am most concerned about the tile. 2" differences across the pool is just a pretty crummy job in my opinion. Here are some pictures of the whole pool per you request.


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bmoreswim: I agree with what you are saying. I think part of the problem is that the coping stones themselves are so poorly constructed, I don't know how they would level them. The top surfaces don't seem to be straight or level. These were custom built, but apparently not by a good builder. Here are some examples. I think we can learn to live with the coping, I just really struggle with the tile. 2" differences in tile installation is worse than I did on my first attempt at tiling as a home owner project, many moons ago....

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Yeah, it is sloppy work. But my advice is learn to live with it. It is all cosmetic and likely no one other than you will notice.

If you insist on things being fixed there is no guarantee that there will not be other problems.

The lesson for next time is be out there looking over the work as it is being done and raise any concerns while it can be fixed.
 

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Sure, we can keep the water level a few inches above the tile line (below would cause skimmer intake issues), but it’s kind of sad one has to resort to those workarounds after a refurb.

I just cant believe the tiles are off by 2” on a refurb job.

sounds like most of you think this is at the sloppy end of the acceptable range, so I guess I will learn to live with it and just reflect in my review of this builder.....

too bad one has to accept this sloppiness when spending enough money to buy a new car on a pool job....

- - - Updated - - -

Btw: they’re supposed to come back tomorrow to address the leaks. Hopefully that will at least close that issue. It’s been raining all weekend and my water level still went down....
 
We’re the tiles trimmed? Are they straight in line or unlevel to water in pool?

The tiles are not trimmed. They just did not install them level. Post #3 first picture shows an area where the tiles are "wavy": tile line is below water level on left and right, but above it in the middle. Comparing the highest point of the tile line and the lowest point across the pool, there is about 2" difference (pictures 2 and 3 in post #3).
 
The plaster might be a bit on the sloppy side, but I think it's within acceptable limits based on what I've seen. The fact that you didn't get much plaster dust is actually a really good thing IMO. It means you don't have aggressive water eating away the top layer of your plaster and etching it, making it more porous.

The tile and coping on the other hand are beyond what I'd consider acceptable. There's no reason the tile should be that far out of level, and the offset between the coping and deck is just sloppy work.
 
Interesting previous thread I just found that suggests tile should be within 1/4" of level: https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/111021-How-level-should-waterline-tile-be

Once PB fixes the leak I may bring this up as well. Hesitant to raise this before he fixes the leak as I am afraid he will just walk away from the whole job......

I would bring it up now. If he walks away, it just makes it really easy for you to take the issue to small claims court and prevail -- unless you think he could just disappear and never pay a judgment. But if it's an established business with a reputation, bring it all up. I would even aim high, bringing up every little issue, and then you can meet in the middle with him at what would be an acceptable level.

Just remember to document everything with him. When you have a verbal conversation about this, follow up with an email or letter summarizing the conversation, asking him to please respond right away if he does not agree with your summary.
 
Is the shell itself level? Has it raised or settled since construction?

I can't guarantee that the shell is 100% level; however I know that the old coping was better aligned with the deck, looked straighter and that the old tile was 100% perfectly level with the water line. So the pool shell itself must have been pretty close to level.

if the pool shell had shifted significantly out of level and would have made it impossible to align/level coping and tile the PB would have pointed that out either before work started or while they were trying to level things. They never mentioned anything of the sort, and I did not hear any concerns from the several other PBs that came out to quote. So I am pretty sure that the shell is pretty level.
 
Time for an update: had the PB come out 2 days ago to look for the source of the leak. While he did not find the source, he did acknowledge that the tiles were way off level. He is going to talk to the owner, we'll see what they say. He agreed that tile should have been within 1/4" of level, and that it was off by 2". We're doing some trouble shooting for the leak, and I think things are starting to point at the connection between wall and skimmer boxes, under the tile. Poor preparation prior to a poor tile job. With a little luck the leak will help me convince PB to replace the tile...

For more on the leak, see Pool leak mystery: help me create a plan of action please....
 
I forgot one additional story that illustrates what we're dealing with: on Monday the PB was out to test the leaks. I confirmed with the customer rep who was out that were coming on Friday to replace the deckoseal. They had asked me to take the day off and be home for them while they did this. PB confirmed on Monday, but said to check with scheduler just in case. I asked scheduler on Monday by email to let me know if the schedule changed.

Today I get an email from the scheduler that they do not have me scheduled at all for the deckoseal job. He may be able to get me in in a few weeks....

These guys really care about their customers.....

- - - Updated - - -

Final rant: we also can't remove one of the eyelets in the return fittings. It will twist a bit left or right, and then stop moving. PB also could not get it out on Monday. They were supposed to take care of that on Friday as well. So I guess we can wait for that for several weeks too....

We did notice that the return fittings were covered with gunite/mortar/primer splashes, including inside the threats. I think they forced the eyelet into a dirty thread and now they cant get it our anymore. Saga continues.
 

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