Central AC Advice

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R

rscam

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May 4, 2018
65
Merrick/NY (Long Island)
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I know it's not pool related, but I trust the opinions of the people on this forum so figured I'd ask. Looking to replace my central ac system in my house (currently a 20 year old 5 ton split looking to either replace in kind or install 2 smaller units to have an upstairs and downstairs zone)

The installer that I like (so far) works with Ruud/Rheem. Quoting me on their single speed entry level models. I was looking for anyone with experience with this brand good or bad.

Experience with other brands welcome too. And of course, if you live near me (long island NY) and know of a good installer that would be great too.

Thanks

Ron
 
The best source of local info on installers in my area is the Next Door app. If there is a version for your neighborhood, you can search to see if someone recently asked for recommendations for A/C installation.

My sister recently had the furnace blower short out on her downstairs unit, thus her downstairs a/c would not run. The upstairs unit was fine and kept the house tolerable until the downstairs unit was repaired. That being said you may have to redo your furnace if you go with 2 units. She has a downstairs furnace and an upstairs furnace as well.

I did find this info on a/c brands: Top 10 Air Conditioner Brands of 2018 - What is the Best Air Conditioner Brand? Central AC Brands - Which has the best reputation? - 2018

Overall most brands are similar in quality, and its the installation and service provider that will make the difference in which is the best value.
 
I can give you first hand experience, as I just had my 5 ton split replaced last week.
I spent weeks doing my homework and researching everything I could get my hands on. All of the brands have different tiers on them, which dictate price. i.e Amana = Goodman, etc.
Trane used to be top dog in the industry, but got bought out by an overseas company, stay away!! (Read reviews yourself)
Without going into a long winded rant, in the end I went with a 2 stage system from Lennox. 10 year everything warranty, and if you stay on a companies maintenance plan, your labor is covered for 10 years as well.
As Zea3 stated, it comes down to the company that installed it. I went with a Lennox premier dealer that has been around for over 30 years, and has a 4.9 star rating on google.
If you’re asking why Lennox? That is the company that Costco chose out of all the manufacturers out there. We all know Costco doesn’t play when it comes to taking care of it’s members.
 
Just some info on my recent experience and hope it helps in your decision.
11 Years ago we had a Amana heat pump installed, both a/c and heat is created in those.
Amana used to be a top of the line MFG company and also made in Iowa. Up until a few years ago they were bought out by Goodman, all the units were made to Goodman spec's and kept the Amana name.
Today that line is total garbage. including Goodman. After 11 years our unit totally failed and lost all Freon, R22. 8 weeks ago. That R22 is 45- 60 dollars a pound today by installer , maybe 600 -900 for a refill alone and this is the last year it will be around unless you want to buy hazardous waste at gold prices.
We had a problem with that unit within the first few months and never totally had it working right, made all kinds of noise and factory rep could not explain.
The heating company which I have worked with over 20 some years finally gave up on them since they were doing more warranty work than they did new installs.
There are almost only 4 major company's that make units by the name you hear most often and the parent company of you would not recognize. Carrier is a unit we went with this time, they have been in the A/C stuff a long time.
RUUD and RHEEM from my understanding are good lower priced units, Carrier the best mid price and Trane the top and most expensive due to build quality and almost over kill on design.
Most units today they say have a life of 10 -12 years. Depending on home size is how the pricing will come out and as stated above, after much research from web site reviews from pro installers, its the quality of install that will make the unit last a normal life or fail early.
Stay away from anything Goodman made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Check the reviews on line if someone treys to sell one of their units to you.
 
It might be worth the money to move up to a 2 stage compressor and a variable speed fan. Both of those will save you quite a bit of electricity, especially in the shoulder seasons when you don't need as much air conditioning to reach the temp.
 
Thanks everyone. This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for, very helpful. Keep it coming if anyone else has anything else to add. I'm bringing in a bunch of contractors (Focusing on the ones that people around me have used and have had good experiences with), as I've seen alot of the same comments (that the install means as much or more than the quality of unit), but still want to make sure I get a good unit.
 
I like the Costco comment. If you have a membership they are the way to go. Plus depending on if you have the exec membership and credit card it’s another 3% back on top of the cash cards they usually have. We used them for air purifier installs.

Being in the north east you may want to look at a heat pump. I don’t know how old your heater is but they are more efficient and cool really well and depending on your winter heating would save money on gas or electric.
 
pooldv said:
It might be worth the money to move up to a 2 stage compressor and a variable speed fan. Both of those will save you quite a bit of electricity, especially in the shoulder seasons when you don't need as much air conditioning to reach the temp.
Click to expand...

Poodle is correct. (Sorry Danny, couldn’t resist;) ) The nice thing about a 2 stage system is it’s ability to run at lower output to maintain the cooling in your home. With a 5 ton unit, most of the time it will be running at 3 ton output. The savings on electricity is quite a bit.

rscam said:
Thanks everyone. This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for, very helpful. Keep it coming if anyone else has anything else to add. I'm bringing in a bunch of contractors (Focusing on the ones that people around me have used and have had good experiences with), as I've seen alot of the same comments (that the install means as much or more than the quality of unit), but still want to make sure I get a good unit.
Click to expand...

Yes absolutely get many estimates. I had 6 different companies come through. They all come in close in prices, but listen to the things they explain to you that you would need to have the best system for YOUR house. If 4 out of 6 are recommending a certain setup, then look in that direction.

SpringPool said:
I like the Costco comment. If you have a membership they are the way to go. Plus depending on if you have the exec membership and credit card it’s another 3% back on top of the cash cards they usually have. We used them for air purifier installs.

Being in the north east you may want to look at a heat pump. I don’t know how old your heater is but they are more efficient and cool really well and depending on your winter heating would save money on gas or electric.
Click to expand...

Even though I have a Costco exec membership, I didn’t use it. The 10% cash card that is currently being offered, is not payed by Costco, but rather by Lennox. So you can get the same rebate by dealing with a Lennox dealer directly.
But, you are correct that if you use your membership and the Costco Visa card, you can get some more money back.
In my situation, I just negotiated the best price with the dealer.
 
I replaced both of my 17 year old builder installed systems (Bryant) last year with both new systems being Lennox. One is the top end Signature series and the other is the mid-range.

The installer you use should measure and provide you with a worksheet as to what size system will fit your ductwork. You can't simply go with "x" tons of A/C it needs to be properly sized.

I have a system in the attic for my upper level and a system in the basement for the basement and main level. I also got a fully automatic internet enabled Honeywell thermostat.

Not sure of your budget but both my systems were around $15,000 installed after all rebates. 1 is 10 and the other is 12 years parts and labor warranties.

I would also go with a 2 speed unit. A/C is heavier and needs a higher fan speed.

Rheem/Ruud are lower end units. Lennox is the Cadillac, Rheem is the Hyundai.
 

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rajung said:
Just some info on my recent experience and hope it helps in your decision.
11 Years ago we had a Amana heat pump installed, both a/c and heat is created in those.
Amana used to be a top of the line MFG company and also made in Iowa. Up until a few years ago they were bought out by Goodman, all the units were made to Goodman spec's and kept the Amana name.
Today that line is total garbage. including Goodman. After 11 years our unit totally failed and lost all Freon, R22. 8 weeks ago. That R22 is 45- 60 dollars a pound today by installer , maybe 600 -900 for a refill alone and this is the last year it will be around unless you want to buy hazardous waste at gold prices.
We had a problem with that unit within the first few months and never totally had it working right, made all kinds of noise and factory rep could not explain.
The heating company which I have worked with over 20 some years finally gave up on them since they were doing more warranty work than they did new installs.
There are almost only 4 major company's that make units by the name you hear most often and the parent company of you would not recognize. Carrier is a unit we went with this time, they have been in the A/C stuff a long time.
RUUD and RHEEM from my understanding are good lower priced units, Carrier the best mid price and Trane the top and most expensive due to build quality and almost over kill on design.
Most units today they say have a life of 10 -12 years. Depending on home size is how the pricing will come out and as stated above, after much research from web site reviews from pro installers, its the quality of install that will make the unit last a normal life or fail early.
Stay away from anything Goodman made!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Check the reviews on line if someone treys to sell one of their units to you.
Click to expand...

You can replace r-22 with a drop in refreg that cost half as much and lowers the capacity by around 7%

I think it's r-481

Strange my mom's good man hearpump has been solid, I hope it lasts for her
 
Goodman actually makes some very good units, especially when you get into their 2 stage ones. They have been in the top 10 best for the last 3 years running. (Goodman is actually the worlds largest manufacturer of a/c units) And they are one of the companies that offer lifetime on the compressor.
Now, all manufacturers use the same Copeland compressor in their units, with the exception being Trane. The reason Goodman can get a bad rap is because of their “builder grade” line of products that builders slam into new housing developments. They are single stage, thin gauge steel, bottom of the run, inexpensive units. You get what you pay for.
Again, it comes down to the company that installs it. A great company can make even a cheap unit last longer then a bad company with a high end unit. Keep in mind though, no install company wants to be out servicing units all the time, so when they reach a certain % of repairs with a particular brand/line, they call it quits.

I don’t have a heat pump in my setup, I simply have a split system with gas heat. The reason I went with a 2 stage compressor vs a variable speed compressor is this. When you look at the way a 2 stage works, there is almost no difference in running capacity vs the VS one to offset the gigantic price difference. I did however go with a VS air handler/furnace for the system. I highly recommend that setup. When the system starts, the blower runs very slowly to cool the hot air that is resting in the ductwork. Then as the coil gets colder and colder, the blower increases speed in increments to max output. The result is no blast of hot air coming out of your ducts on start up, and the house cools dramatically faster.

So again, I’ll summarize. The original unit I replaced was a seer 10 Lennox from 1998 that came when they built the house. Through findings, it was lucky to be a seer 6 at capacity. Why? Install. When they installed these units in this complex, they wham-bam thank you maam installed them. No plenums, no dampers to control air flow to different parts of the house, no nuttin!
So it all comes down to the company that is doing the work. The guys I chose actually installed a second return to allow the unit to breath better. A 4ft plenum with all ducts coming off the sides and top of the plenum. (You never want a supply coming off the end of the plenum) And a whole other bunch of things that make the unit perform at its peak performance. Again, install, install, install. Did I mention install?

P.S Be warned, the new compressors are HUGE in comparison to the old ones. I have a 5 ton unit, and it’s the size of 2/3rds a phone booth. (For those of you who remember what those are) So keep that in mind when planning on the pad it will rest on. (Most good companies will install the pad if needed, just make sure you have clearance)
 
When it comes to options....there is no shortage.
I work in the Facilities Management industry and can tell you that, along with the quality of the air handler/condensor...the quality of the installer is of equal importance. In fact, there are only a handful of companies that make the compressors...but they are sold in MANY different brand names. The installer, if reputable, is worth their weight in gold when it comes to educating the customer, insuring the unit is installed correctly, warranty, and future repairs.
Recommendation: contact a local university Director of Facilities/Maintenance and ask them who they use. Often times, they are dealing with HUNDREDS of air systems and know who to hire and who not to hire from your community. A simple phone call can at least point you in the right direction if your bids are withing a small percentage of one another.
When it comes to HVAC units, cheapest is not always the best value.
 
If it makes any difference, Daikan is the world's largest HVAC manufacturer and they bought Goodman/Amana about 5-6 years ago.

I had a brand new 5 ton system 2-stage w/ variable speed furnace cut into my home a few months ago (new compressor, furnace, coil, ducts and registers). Definitely obtain as many quotes as possible from reputable installers in your area.

End of the day, from what I gathered, the bulk of the brands are comparable to each other as long as you are comparing them apples-to-apples, i.e. single stage vs single stage, 2-stage vs 2-stage and variable speed vs variable speed.

What makes the difference is the skillset/knowledge of the installer.

I'm not sure why the installer you spoke to only offered up a single stage system when 2-stage systems w/ variable speed furnace/fan are just a tad more and the payback is so quick. For example, my new system has been weathering the brutal heat wave we've had in the past month and my electricity bill is 65-70% of what it was when I had my old HVAC system running the same time last summer. It's a huge difference so definitely look into at least a 2-stage system with variable speed furnace/air handler.
 
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Ready for a monkey wrench? Don't go with a two zone system, go with a six or 7 zone system! Huh? Ok here's what I did and we LOVE how it worked out. I moved into a run down 40 plus year old house with all original everything including the HVAC. On a hot day it ran constantly and never cooled the house below 79, which is way to hot for my wife.

After some research and a tip from my RE agent, I scaled the duct work down to only cover the common areas - LR, DR, FR and kitchen. I removed the ducts from all the bedrooms, baths and hallways. I replaced the ducts that fed the common areas with new, insulated ducts and new registers. I was then able to replace the AC with a 4 ton instead of a 5 ton, and it cools the common areas great.

Then I installed a Mini Split system in each bedroom. You can install single units, or double,triple/quad units depending on your bedroom layouts. The mini splits cost about $700 each, plus installation which can be DIY if you're handy, or about $500-$700 if you hire it out. The mini split units cool and heat, almost silently, very efficiently - 23 SEER is not uncommon, the lowest they offer is 16/17 SEER. Here's a link to a what we installed in each bedroom.

Now we simply turn off the main central AC at night, and turn on ONLY the mini split in the bedrooms that are occupied. For us with one child, that means two small mini splits running on low, and our electrical usage confirms this is much cheaper for us than running the central AC overnight. Also we never cool any rooms that we're not occupying. We ONLY cool the rooms we're in, common areas during the day, bedrooms at night. We have 5 bedrooms total, and the central AC, so its literally six zones - 1 big common zone and 5 bedroom zones, all fully customizable.

Your situation may be different, but for us this gives us perfectly customized comfort in each room and a lower total cost than running Central AC overnight, cooling the whole house, when we're sleeping in two bedrooms. Frankly my 3 year old son doesn't like it that cool so he only has the cieling fan running, saving even more money.

Just a suggestion if you're redoing everything, large central AC isn't the only option. If you're going central, I can vouch that the Goodman higher end two stage stuff is really nice quality.
 
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