IntelliChem Setup

[Matchless1]

Background:

I’ve been running two separate Stenner pumps for chlorine and acid for about two years now. My chlorine “tank” is a 5 gallon bucket, and my acid “tank” is a 10 gallon bucket. I dilute my acid 3:1 (3 parts water to 1 part acid). I know most people do 2:1 or even 1:1, but I just like playing it safe, and I get about 6-8 weeks out of the 10 gallon acid mix.

I really like the setup, and I rarely have to make big adjustments to the chlorine dosage. However, the acid seems to be a mild daily roller coaster. Over time, I’ve found that maintaining a pH of 7.8 – 8.0 works best for my pool as opposed to the normal 7.2 – 7.6. But even in the 7.8 – 8.0 range, one day I’ll get 7.9, another day 8.0, another 8.1, sometimes 8.2. It’s manageable with my setup because I have a WiFi outlet timer controlling the acid pump, so I can just dial in the required amount of time to dose the right amount of acid each day. As “easy” as that is, I guess I’m always looking to make things even easier by not having to take a water sample every single day just to keep my pH in check. Also, when I’m away for more than a couple days, I’d rather not ask the wife or neighbors to take readings (the right way), texting me the number then making sure I set the timer correctly each day. Enter the IntelliChem.

After reading many other posts on TFP about the IntelliChem, I think I’d like to give it a shot at making the pH maintenance easier, which I’ve read it’s pretty good at (unlike the FC/ORP maintenance). I’ll try both, but I’m really just interested in the pH monitoring and dosing aspect, unlike the IntelliPH, which is basically the same thing I have already…honestly not even sure why they call it IntelliPH. “EasyPH” I could see, but there’s nothing intelligent about that system…I digress.

Question:

Alright, so my main question in all of this is where to put the taps for the inlet and outlet to the flow cell of the IntelliChem? Most posts I’ve read come off the pump suction for the flow cell outlet and then somewhere after the filter for the flow cell inlet, which makes sense to help with low pump speeds on VS pumps. With that in mind, I was considering location B (pump suction) for the flow cell outlet and location A (post filter, pre-ozone and acid/chlorine injection) for the flow cell inlet. Would this be acceptable, or should location C (after acid/chlorine injection) be used instead of one of those or is there some other arrangement anyone recommends?

 

[Matchless1]

Another couple of questions I have are:

1. The manual states to plumb the inlet BEFORE the solar valve. Is it a problem with putting it after the solar valve as long as it’s in the main line after the solar return?
2. Has anyone been able to set the target pH higher than 7.6? I don't have the IntelliChem yet, but just playing around with the settings in ScreenLogic, it's limiting me to 7.6. The manual seems to support this as the upper limit as well. This could be a deal breaker for me, since I tend to run my pH in the 7.8 to 8.0 range.

 

[Jeffnhelen]

Waiting for replies as I am looking to do the same pH management with MA and the IntelliChem.

BTW Great pool build you put on here!

 

[Matchless1]

Thanks for the bump and the compliment. Hopefully we get some bites soon. I also emailed the same questions to Pentair, but crickets on that end too so far.

 

[Jeffnhelen]

Any answers from Pentair yet? I'm starting to design out my plumbing and curious what size the inlet and outlet taps are because I would rather put a Tee inline and cap it off until I get the unit installed than drill a hole after the fact. I've seen that someone recommended a 1/2" tee or reducer for the injection tap but can't tell if the flow lines use the same tap or not. I'm assuming all of the taps are threaded also?

 

[Matchless1]

Any answers from Pentair yet? I'm starting to design out my plumbing and curious what size the inlet and outlet taps are because I would rather put a Tee inline and cap it off until I get the unit installed than drill a hole after the fact. I've seen that someone recommended a 1/2" tee or reducer for the injection tap but can't tell if the flow lines use the same tap or not. I'm assuming all of the taps are threaded also?

Sorry for the delay...busy weekend! For my acid and chlorine injection points, I used 2 x 2 x 1 reducing tees (but in black) with 1 x 1/2" spigot x FNPT bushings. Like you, I'm not sure if the IntelliChem tubing fittings for the inlet and return of the flow cell are also 1/2", but I would bet they are. Maybe someone else who has one can chime in?

I did hear back from Pentair on my questions though.

Regarding the location of the flow cell inlet and return, this is what they said:

I am not an installer, so I cannot look at your application and tell you what the best place to have those ports installed. You do not want to put anything on the suction line because then you are pulling water through the flow cell and can damage the flow switch. The main idea is the flow cell inlet has to be anywhere after the filter so debris does not clog it up. The flow cell return has to normally be down pipe from the inlet, and you have to be creating a pressure differential so that water is forced into the flow cell inlet line and back through the return.

Of course, this does not agree with the fact that others on TFP have indeed put the flow cell return on the pump suction line. Given the conflicting direction, I would probably lean towards putting my flow cell inlet at location “A” and the return at location “C” to create enough pressure drop between the two. I normally run my pump at 1700 rpm, so hopefully I won’t have any low flow issues.

Regarding the location of the acid/chlorine injection points (which I did not ask about), this is what they said:

You just want the chemical line that adds it to the system after all products like heater etc. Since you don't have a heater you can put that anywhere after the filter for the most part.

Regarding the max pH setting, this is what they said:

The pH will try and lock out around 8 or anything higher than 7.8. The pH level has a max of 7.6, it will not allow you to put a set point any higher than 7.6 on the IntelliChem. We cannot tell it to keep the pH level anything higher than 7.6, I tried on our installed IntelliChem unit here and when you surpass 7.6 as a set point it brings you back to 7.0.

This last answer basically means I won’t be able to use the unit to automatically dose acid, since I cannot have a set point higher than 7.6. The only way I could possibly use it is to monitor pH, assuming it will even read/report pH readings up to 8.0, 8.1, etc (which I’ve asked that question also, but waiting for the reply). I can't really get too excited about spending $900 on a pH monitor/analyzer that doesn’t also dose acid, but the only other options I’ve seen out there are the ePool and the cFloat.

I tried the ePool ($90), but it’s not accurate (even after calibrating), and it doesn’t talk to an app, which is a deal breaker for me, since I need remote monitoring capability. The cFloat ($400) looks promising because it uses an app and is accessible anywhere in the world (not just local WiFi), but the reviews are pretty bad on Amazon. It also measures ORP (for whatever that’s worth (so does the ePool though)) and pool disturbances (i.e. pool alarm). I’ll probably try the cFloat next, but if it doesn’t work, my only other option may be the IntelliChem. In this day and age where so many electronics communicate via WiFi, I can’t believe there are so few options out there to monitor pH of pool water and transmit the results to an app over WiFi.

 

[Dirk]

No IntelliChem here, sorry, can't help with most of your questions. I do have the IntellipH, and it is working great for me. It is dumb, as you pointed out, but it can go to any pH, pretty much. My pH has been very stable. In fact, I just measured my TA since installing it and find it's now down to 60 (from 70) which I suspect has added to the stability. If anything, I'm still working on bringing my pH up a bit (to satisfy CSI) and my pH is kinda stubbornly sticking to 7.6. So I dropped the output percentage down a bit today and I'll check it tomorrow to see if that raises pH where I want.

But I've gone a month without touching chems, and probably up to three days (maybe more?) without testing, and it's still 7.6! Always 7.6. My goal is weekly testing!

I wonder if your efforts should be on what's causing your daily shift, more than adding more gizmos.

My IpH doses small amounts every hour, over a seven hour period. I like that. Much better than manually dosing (spiking) MA once a day. How is your Stenner injecting? Just once a day, in a big plop? Or is it metered out throughout the day? If not, maybe that's something to try. How's your TA? Maybe that's contributing to your pH coaster?

Very nice looking pad. Stealthy!

What is the gizmo to the left of the existing acid injector?

 

[Matchless1]

I wonder if your efforts should be on what's causing your daily shift, more than adding more gizmos.

My IpH doses small amounts every hour, over a seven hour period. I like that. Much better than manually dosing (spiking) MA once a day. How is your Stenner injecting? Just once a day, in a big plop? Or is it metered out throughout the day? If not, maybe that's something to try. How's your TA? Maybe that's contributing to your pH coaster?

Very nice looking pad. Stealthy!

What is the gizmo to the left of the existing acid injector?

The gizmo to the left of the acid injection point is the Del Ozone injection accoutrement.

I do agree with you about trying to figure out what’s causing my pH to constantly drift up. In fact, I started a thread about that aspect a while back (I tried posting a link, but TFP is giving me an error).

Currently, I set my Stenner to dose every evening from 6:30 - 7:00 (typically), but longer (sometimes 7:30 or 8:00) as needed depending on my pH reading that evening. On average, it's about 9 oz I put in every day. I set my chlorine Stenner to dose 1/3 of the total chlorine amount at 10:30 am, 12:00 pm and 1:30 pm every day. During the peak of the summer heat (i.e. now), I'm putting in about 65 oz of chlorine per day (so about 22 oz three times during the day). I suppose I could do something similar with the acid Stenner by dosing 3 oz three times a day at times not overlapping the chlorine dosing times if you think that may make a difference.

My current numbers are as follows: CL=10 (waning down slowly), CC=0.5, pH=7.9, TA=50, CH=275, CYA=40, Borates=20, Temp (Max)=96, CSI=0.17.

Two things I'm considering as possible culprits to the pH drift up are TA and the residual Borates. I don’t run the waterfall of slide that often or for long periods of time.

I added borates in March of 2017 after reading all the positives they can provide (including more stable pH) with very few negatives. Well, somehow the opposite was true for my pool. Immediately after adding the borates I noticed my pH starting to drift up quicker, thus requiring me to add even more acid. What helps support this is the fact that a friend of mine (who also lives in the Baton Rouge area) added borates at the same time and noticed the same thing. I don’t know…maybe it has something to do with the really “soft” water we have down here. Anyway, I still have 20 ppm in my pool, and Pool Math says I need to replace all of it to get it to 0 ppm, 75% to get it to 5 ppm and 50% to get it down to 10 ppm. I’m considering doing the 50% or 75%, but before doing that I’m reminded of something I read posted by Matt recently about TA:

Your optimal TA is whatever keeps your pH the most stable. Borates are part of TA, not separate from it. They are a high pH buffer that has higher buffering strength against pH rise. Bicarbonate alkalinity is the other component of TA that most people understand as being related to the addition of baking soda. Cyanurates (from the stabilizer you add to the water) also adds to your TA.

So simply monitor your pH. If it rises too fast, then you need to lower TA. If it falls over time, then you need to raise TA. If it’s mostly stable, then your TA is just fine.

Maybe my TA of even just 50 is high enough to cause my pH to still drift up. Maybe I should try adding enough acid to drop my pH to 7.5, and just let the TA fall where it falls (i.e. don’t add Baking Soda to get TA back up) in order to keep my pH in the 7.5 – 7.6 range, especially if it allows me to add less acid daily.

Honestly, I don’t have a problem with adding 9 oz of acid per day (the Stenner makes it really easy). It would just help my automated analyzer/dosing plan (i.e. IntelliChem) if I could keep my pH in the 7.5 – 7.6 range without dumping a ton of acid in every day and combating the resulting drop in TA by constantly adding Baking Soda too.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

pH rise is entirely dominated by the outgassing of CO2 from the water. Borates do not cause a rise in pH because they do not leave the water on their own. The only volatile species in all of the TA is carbonate alkalinity. Because carbonates affect pH and because they can leave the water in the form of CO2, they alone cause pH drift.

You can’t and shouldn’t lower your TA much below 50ppm or else you could cause your pH to crash from your automated acid additions. That would be detrimental to plaster life and to your heater. There is no reason to keep your pH setpoint at 7.5-7.6. Your water wants it’s pH to be higher and the lower you try to force it, the more self-defeating it is. Let your pH live between 7.7-7.9 and keep your TA low around 60ppm and I bet your acid demand will be lower.

 

[Matchless1]

Ok. That gets back to my previous thread (wish TFP would let me link it) where I mentioned that even trying to maintain a TA of 60 is tough, especially when trying to get my pH below 7.8. Seems like (for some crazy unknown reason to me) the happy spot for my pool is a pH of 7.9-8.0 and a TA of 50...and that’s still with adding 9 oz of acid daily. If I start adding Baking Soda to get my TA up to 60, my pH will shoot up to around 8.1 or 8.2. Then I have to add a bunch more acid to get it down to 7.9, which drops my TA to 50, then Baking Soda to get the TA back up, then more acid and round and round I go into crazy land again, which I’ve been trying to get out of lately.

Other than me thinking I need to fit the mold of a pH between 7.5-7.6, is there anything wrong with my numbers above as they are now?

 

[Dirk]

I'm still learning about TA myself, so I can only tell you what I do about it. Nothing. I wrangled it down from 2-somthing after the last fill, to about 100. Then left it alone. I have pH rise from newish pebble, and the SWG exacerbated that. I was using about 6-9oz a day, too. TA came down to about 70 without me doing anything. But one thing I did figure out, the more I wrestled pH down, the faster it came right back up. 7.2 to 8.0 takes about the same amount of time as 7.7 to 8.0 as does 7.9 to 8.0. It really does want to be where it wants to be, and in my pool, like yours, it's high 7s. 8+ if I let it go. So I added the injector and now it rides 7.6, 7.7 and TA has come down on its own to 60. I want to get pH up to 7.7 or 7.8, to raise my CSI, so I'll just tweak the injector a bit more and hope that I can stabilize it there. Since that's where it wants to be anyway, that should work fine.

I thought I read here way back when that you can actually get into a bounce mode with some of these levels. I think pH was one. Adding too many chemicals to achieve an artificial target can cause the levels to be unstable, so you add more and just worsen things. Best to leave them be if they're in range. Something like that. It's a little vague now. Matt could probably fill in the blanks...

 

[Matchless1]

I read on TFP recently (can’t remember which thread) that low CH may play a role in pH drift. My CH hovers pretty consistently around 250 to 275. As a reminder, I use liquid chlorine, not salt. Do you think it would be worth trying to get the CH up higher around 350 or so to see if that helps stabilize the pH at a lower reading?

I’m a little hesitant to do it without knowing what to expect (pH wise), since the only way to lower CH is to replace water (I think). Having said that, we do have really soft water here. A sample of my fill water shows a CH of 25 (I think that’s low...just one drop of the reagent).

Thoughts anyone?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

CH does not affect pH in any way. TA is what drives pH. If you read that CH affects pH on this site, please link to the thread so that the issue can be discussed and corrected.

 

[Matchless1]

CH does not affect pH in any way. TA is what drives pH. If you read that CH affects pH on this site, please link to the thread so that the issue can be discussed and corrected.

This is the thread I was referring to: Adding Acid Everyday To Stay Under 8.0 PH. Should TA go Up Or Down?

An older method that is in line with TFP may help you. Try increasing the CH to 350 and see if the pH stabilises a bit better.

Again in line with TFP try letting the pH drift out to 7.8 and see if this is easier to manage.

The idea is the higher CH level is added to a new plaster pool to assist in reducing migration of calcium carbonate from the pool plaster. Generally we used to hold CH and pH up here for 6 months or so and then let it reduce to a more neutral setting.

Maybe I misinterpreted it.

 

[Matchless1]

Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I started installing my IntelliChem today. Everything seems clear, except the directions for wiring the main 120V power supply. The manual (as shown below) says to “Connect one wire to the brown/black wires connected together and one wire to the blue/white wires connected together.” My questions are:

1. Why do I need two 120V supply wires connected to the unit?

2. If I plan to use it as a pH and ORP monitor only (i.e. not for dosing), and bypass connecting it to the filter pump relay, should I

a. connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the brown/black wires and connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the blue/white wires OR
b. connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the brown/black wires and leave the blue/white wires connected to each other but nothing else? If so, where do I connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the unit? OR
c. connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the black wire and connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the white wire, cap the brown and blue wires (separately) and call it a day?

I hope that made a little sense. In case it's not clear, when I say "line" and "neutral" above, I'm referring to the supply wire from the breaker.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

This is the thread I was referring to: Adding Acid Everyday To Stay Under 8.0 PH. Should TA go Up Or Down?



Maybe I misinterpreted it.

No what Spa Owner says is wrong and it only applies to plaster startup, not a cured plaster surface. Plaster dust at startup is essentially the emission of calcium hydroxide from the plaster surface while it is curing and it is typically a problem when the water has an aggressive (etching) saturation value and calcium hydroxide drives the pH up rapidly. The heart of the TFP Recommended Bicarbonate Start up process is the recognition that calcium hydroxide emission is unwanted and so you balance the TA and CH while keeping the pH below 8.0 in order to get a positive saturation index. That keeps the calcium hydroxide in the plaster and allows the surface of the plaster to form a hardened calcium carbonate layer through a process called plaster carbonation (plaster hydrolysis is the bulk conversion of caustic calcium compounds into calcium silicates). So raising CH and TA in the immediate fill water keeps the pH in check through the process of carbonation.

In cured plaster with a surface submerged in aggressive water (negative CSI), you can get some dissolution of the calcium carbonate surface but that will not drive up pH aggressively. SO adding CH to the water in an attempt to “protect the surface” and keep the pH from rising will not work as described. One would have to aggressively etch away the plaster surface (to the point of obvious deterioration) before any highly caustic material could be emitted.

So, in short, CH and pH can be treated completely independent of one another.

 

[Matchless1]

Ok, thanks for clarifying!

 

[Matchless1]

2. If I plan to use it as a pH and ORP monitor only (i.e. not for dosing), and bypass connecting it to the filter pump relay, should I

a. connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the brown/black wires and connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the blue/white wires OR
b. connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the brown/black wires and leave the blue/white wires connected to each other but nothing else? If so, where do I connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the unit? OR
c. connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the black wire and connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the white wire, cap the brown and blue wires (separately) and call it a day?

For others who may want to know, I asked Pentair the questions above and they said option "a": Connect the “line” (hot/black) wire to the brown/black wires and connect the “neutral” (white) wire to the blue/white wires.

 

[Matchless1]

So, I finished setting everything up today, but I’m getting a “NO FLOW DETECTED” error message. I’m pretty sure I’m getting flow as shown in the video here. It seems lower than I was expecting, but maybe that’s normal…not sure. I realize flow will be higher with the tubing outlet open to atmosphere vs. connected the downstream piping. Also, the Flow Cell container is full of water even though it looks empty, obviously there is some flow.

What I’m hoping is that it’s just an error with the wiring of the Flow Cell. See, the thing is, the manual states to “connect the BLACK wire to the GND screw terminal and the RED wire to the FLOW screw terminal.” However, the diagram below that (and on the back side of the lid) states the opposite: BLACK to FLOW and Red to GND. When hooking it up, I went with what the diagram showed (in two places...2 against 1), but does anyone know if I should follow the verbiage in the manual instead and connect the BLACK wire to the GND screw terminal and the RED wire to the FLOW screw terminal? It’s a simple thing to try, but I just want to make sure I don’t fry anything.

Or is the flow shown in the video really too low and do I need to re-plumb the inlet/outlet line(s)? If so, any suggestions on what to change up? Although, I really don't want to have to re-plumb the tubing.

 

[bdavis466]

That isn't enough flow and now you see why people plumb the return side of the flow switch to the suction side of the plumbing. You want to create as large of pressure differential between the inlet and outlet as possible so that you can run your pump at the lowest speed possible. Leaving plumbed the way you have it now you will probably not get adequate flow until 2500-2800 rpm on the pump.

The flow switch wiring should be interchangeable so that isn't the issue either.