16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[setsailsoon]

My situation is a little different. High humidity (70% or higher) almost always outside. Moderate temps in winter and summer. Max temp is usually 93 in summer... once or twice we hit 95 over past 10 years. And a LOT of sun (radiant heat) year-round. In winter we only run heat 3-4 days per year a few hours in morning. Then add to this we have some of the most stringent design codes in the country that limit structure to cmu block and extreme roof truss design. Windows have to be impact rated or use hurricane shutters. Garage door is rated to 180 mph wind in my location. We have a blower test requirement that was implemented 6 months ago and it's driving builders nuts. Several I know of are having difficulty passing because the house is too tight.

The code requirements can be a pain to deal with but they are also yielding a very high quality structure. So when I get aggravated I try to focus on how I'll feel about them when a cat 3 storm becomes cat 5 unexpectedly after it's too late to leave.

Chris

 

[Dirk]

Yep, building codes can be a pain, but they usually exist because someone got hurt (physically or financially) somewhere along the way. Can you imagine a structure without any? You see some crazy stuff in other countries!

I was in Ecuador staying with friends of friends. I was in bad need of a nice, hot shower. Hmmm, only one knob in the shower stall. I look up and there is an exposed knife switch wired next to some sort of heating element shower head. And Ecuador is 220!! So it was a quick, cold shower that night!!

And it wasn't some DIY jerry-rigged setup. Nope. Just a standard installation. Found a picture of a similar setup on google just now! Check out the printing stamped on the knife switch! Good to know the switch is rated properly and up to code!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Yep, building codes can be a pain, but they usually exist because someone got hurt (physically or financially) somewhere along the way. Can you imagine a structure without any? You see some crazy stuff in other countries!

I was in Ecuador staying with friends of friends. I was in bad need of a nice, hot shower. Hmmm, only one knob in the shower stall. I look up and there is an exposed knife switch wired next to some sort of heating element shower head. And Ecuador is 220!! So it was a quick, cold shower that night!!

And it wasn't some DIY jerry-rigged setup. Nope. Just a standard installation. Found a picture of a similar setup on google just now! Check out the printing stamped on the knife switch! Good to know the switch is rated properly and up to code!!

View attachment 418041

If you feel a tingle, then you know it’s working right …

 

[Dirk]

It's a good way to keep your electric bills down, I suppose. Not so much a "for your comfort" dealio, more like a "I double-dog-dare-ya!"

 

[jseyfert3]

Yep, building codes can be a pain, but they usually exist because someone got hurt (physically or financially) somewhere along the way. Can you imagine a structure without any? You see some crazy stuff in other countries!

I was in Ecuador staying with friends of friends. I was in bad need of a nice, hot shower. Hmmm, only one knob in the shower stall. I look up and there is an exposed knife switch wired next to some sort of heating element shower head. And Ecuador is 220!! So it was a quick, cold shower that night!!

And it wasn't some DIY jerry-rigged setup. Nope. Just a standard installation. Found a picture of a similar setup on google just now! Check out the printing stamped on the knife switch! Good to know the switch is rated properly and up to code!!

View attachment 418041

Oh gosh. I knew about these. I watched a guy on YouTube take several apart. They don’t even have properly insulated heating elements like anything in the US would have. It’s literally just a coiled wire connected to the power inside the water stream! They then stick a grounding wire in the water just after it. That is not at all proper electrical safety…

When I was in St Lucia everywhere from the resort to the cheapest shack houses had solar water heating on the roofs. Simple, vertically oriented tubes running into a water tank on the upper end of the tubes. Convective heat, no need for antifreeze loops on a Caribbean island, just run the cold water into the system and convective currents heat the water which flows up into the tank and colder water cycles out into the lower end of the tubes. Free hot water.

I figured there must have been a company that made these on the island cause I didn’t seem them used anywhere else in the Caribbean so often as on St Lucia. They were literally everywhere!

 

[setsailsoon]

Folks,

I got the first design package that will go in my permit application. Details on knife edge are still in progress but I'm a little concerned about pump lift for the basin in this first pass of the detailed design. They have located the pump on my pool pad beside the house. This is the way I've seen it for almost all pools but I was expecting something different with the catch basin for the infinity edge. Section of the pool and catch basin plus plumbing general arrangement are attached. Seems to me this could be a problem in the long run when pump suction is lost and I'm essentially drawing water from the basin that is ~ 7' below the pump pad plus about 50' of pipe. Maybe I should located the pump beside the catch basin? What say you TFPers?

Chris

 

[ajw22]

They don't put enough engineering into the ducting, so in addition to your attention to your insulation, put some of that into the HVAC design, which can go a long way into your actual comfort level.

My HVAC tip is put dedicated returns and supply vents in each room.

HVAC terminology is the opposite of what we use in pool. The HVAC return is where the air is sucked back into the air handler and the supplies are the vents where the cooled air comes out.

In many homes there is a supply duct in each room and one central return usually in a central corridor. That causes uneven cooling between room and makes the house drafty as all air must flow back to the central return. Closing the door to a room causes problem with air circulating out of the room.

When I replaced the original builder AC systems in my house that had a central return I had a return duct installed in each upstairs room since there was easy access to the ceiling from the attic. The downstairs was left with a central return.

Also the supply vents should be on the outside walls by windows so it puts a curtain of cold air where you have the highest thermal loss by the windows. The orginal supply ducts had been placed by inside walls so we used then for the new returns and installed new supply ducts in the ceiling by the outside walls.

Most new construction HVAC installers do little to no engineering on the return and supply duct system and they do the simplistic easiest to install ducting.

@setsailsoon I hope you are giving some attention to your HVAC duct design and placement.

 

[Dirk]

Most new construction HVAC installers do little to no engineering on the return and supply duct system and they do the simplistic easiest to install ducting.

That's what I've always observed and had to live with. I love the dedicated supply and return for each room plan. Makes a lot of sense. The additional cost of designing and building the best ducting possible would be deferred over the decades of the improved comfort you'll enjoy.

 

[setsailsoon]

My HVAC tip is put dedicated returns and supply vents in each room.

HVAC terminology is the opposite of what we use in pool. The HVAC return is where the air is sucked back into the air handler and the supplies are the vents where the cooled air comes out.

In many homes there is a supply duct in each room and one central return usually in a central corridor. That causes uneven cooling between room and makes the house drafty as all air must flow back to the central return. Closing the door to a room causes problem with air circulating out of the room.

When I replaced the original builder AC systems in my house that had a central return I had a return duct installed in each upstairs room since there was easy access to the ceiling from the attic. The downstairs was left with a central return.

Also the supply vents should be on the outside walls by windows so it puts a curtain of cold air where you have the highest thermal loss by the windows. The orginal supply ducts had been placed by inside walls so we used then for the new returns and installed new supply ducts in the ceiling by the outside walls.

Most new construction HVAC installers do little to no engineering on the return and supply duct system and they do the simplistic easiest to install ducting.

@setsailsoon I hope you are giving some attention to your HVAC duct design and placement.

Great points you make Alan! Yes I have thought a lot about this. We have separate supply and return in each room and the return lines are hard piped to the air handlers. Since we are going with a sealed rather than vented attic we are also placing the units above the garage on each side of the house. This approach avoids a very congested pathway above the HVAC closet and a lot of turns in the ductwork. The only downside to this approach is that it requires additional ceiling filters in every room for the returns. But everybody we have talked to on this indicates they do not have to do excessive filter changes and once every 6 months works fine. We are also hopeful that our 12-ft ceilings Plus foam sprayed on the underside of the roof will help.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Folks,

I got the first design package that will go in my permit application. Details on knife edge are still in progress but I'm a little concerned about pump lift for the basin in this first pass of the detailed design. They have located the pump on my pool pad beside the house. This is the way I've seen it for almost all pools but I was expecting something different with the catch basin for the infinity edge. Section of the pool and catch basin plus plumbing general arrangement are attached. Seems to me this could be a problem in the long run when pump suction is lost and I'm essentially drawing water from the basin that is ~ 7' below the pump pad plus about 50' of pipe. Maybe I should located the pump beside the catch basin? What say you TFPers?

Chris

View attachment 419070

View attachment 419071

@bdavis466 what do you think about the pool pump location for this case?

 

[Toxophilite]

I like your layout and design! I only see one hurdle issue. The RH side of porch where all pad plumbing turns back into decking is going to have to allow navigation of deck drain/grading between house and pool. If it ran to end of site and then turned to pool, it would all be under your other perimeter grading and eliminate an extra turn.

 

[setsailsoon]

I like your layout and design! I only see one hurdle issue. The RH side of porch where all pad plumbing turns back into decking is going to have to allow navigation of deck drain between house and pool. If it ran to end of site and then turned to pool, it would all be under your grading and eliminate one turn.

Tox,

Thanks, it's hard to tell from the plan view alone but all those pipe runs are well below the surface and emerge at the pool pad. So I can install a channel drain length of the patio between the patio edge and the pavers to drain off at each end of the patio.

Chris

 

[Toxophilite]

Great!!! Living on the coast for 60+ years, moving water away from house, especially planning for some TS dropping inches per hour, needs contingency planning.

Would be really nice if that 12' wide LH niche with door just so happens to be a bathroom leading to outside pool. After our pool build, which was an afterthought on building the house, I had a guest bathroom to wall and then put in an outside door under a high window header.

 

[jseyfert3]

My HVAC tip is put dedicated returns and supply vents in each room.

HVAC terminology is the opposite of what we use in pool. The HVAC return is where the air is sucked back into the air handler and the supplies are the vents where the cooled air comes out.

In many homes there is a supply duct in each room and one central return usually in a central corridor. That causes uneven cooling between room and makes the house drafty as all air must flow back to the central return. Closing the door to a room causes problem with air circulating out of the room.

When I replaced the original builder AC systems in my house that had a central return I had a return duct installed in each upstairs room since there was easy access to the ceiling from the attic. The downstairs was left with a central return.

Also the supply vents should be on the outside walls by windows so it puts a curtain of cold air where you have the highest thermal loss by the windows. The orginal supply ducts had been placed by inside walls so we used then for the new returns and installed new supply ducts in the ceiling by the outside walls.

Most new construction HVAC installers do little to no engineering on the return and supply duct system and they do the simplistic easiest to install ducting.

@setsailsoon I hope you are giving some attention to your HVAC duct design and placement.

My house had returns in all the bedrooms. Bedrooms were still entirely too hot for my liking for sleeping, due to split level design and heat rising, and probably not enough airflow.

One additional note for @setsailsoon, related to this, is I had an HVAC guy come over to see if they could retrofit in zoning. The answer was yeah, but it wouldn't be worth it for how much I'd have to pay. He mentioned that all installs that are at least semi-modern have air control dampers in the ducts. These can help with the uneven heating. For example, I could slightly restrict AC airflow into the main rooms of the house, to help reduce cooling there and increase it in the bedroom. Or in the winter, slightly restrict airflow in the bedrooms and allow more into the main rooms.

The problem was, that the air control dampers for the bedrooms and the lower family room were hidden away under drywall. I think they were originally in an unfinished room that was later finished. So I wasn't able to access all the air control dampers I needed to do this.

On a new construction, you could add in zoning control for probably not much extra. A proper zoned setup with a proper air bypass at the main unit (although modern HVAC systems with variable speed AC compressors and variable speed blowers should reduce the need for an air bypass) should allow you to have much more even heating and cooling, or allow the bedrooms to cool down at night more without cooling down the entire house. So just something to consider.

At the very least, ensure you have exposed air damper valves, or have access covers over where they are installed behind walls so you can access and tweak them as needed.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Chris ( @setsailsoon ) is in a great place as he gets to dictate the layout and design of all aspects of his home’s mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems. It’s a nice position to be in. For those of us that are second, or third, or fourth owners of homes built long ago, we are stuck with what we have as retrofitting rarely makes any financial sense. In my own home we have no attic space and a flat/closed roof construction. All of the HVAC ducting is encased in the ceiling space with inches (maybe) of spray foam shot everywhere. There is literally no way to change any of the duct work without ripping the entire roof or ceiling apart. Sad, but it’s simply not worth fixing it and so all you can do is install the biggest AC unit you can afford and live with the inconsistent air temperatures (fans work great at moving air around) …

Someday, when Chris builds my home, I’ll pay for all the bells and whistles

 

[Toxophilite]

A proper zoned setup with a proper air bypass at the main unit (although modern HVAC systems with variable speed AC compressors and variable speed blowers should reduce the need for an air bypass) should allow you to have much more even heating and cooling, or allow the bedrooms to cool down at night more without cooling down the entire house. So just something to consider.

At the very least, ensure you have exposed air damper valves, or have access covers over where they are installed behind walls so you can access and tweak them as needed.

I would advise anyone building to not do bypass zoning. I have it, and there's only two options, dump the bypass to another place or recirculate. Mine, recirculates, which adds cold air to intake, which caused much condensation and ruining my box, plus the dampness. Not to mention, the colder air across the evaporator reduces efficiency. Working now to have it re-routed to dump in house where it at least can be used. A true and efficient zones system will work as you stated, with variable speed blowers and compressors. Yes, dampers need maintenance and adjustments, so odd they would put them in the wall!

 

[setsailsoon]

Great!!! Living on the coast for 60+ years, moving water away from house, especially planning for some TS dropping inches per hour, needs contingency planning.

Would be really nice if that 12' wide LH niche with door just so happens to be a bathroom leading to outside pool. After our pool build, which was an afterthought on building the house, I had a guest bathroom to wall and then put in an outside door under a high window header.

It is indeed! It's designed to be mostly for the pool but we can also access through the house. Also has a walk in shower.

Chris

 

[Dirk]

The answer was yeah, but it wouldn't be worth it for how much I'd have to pay.

Almost word for word what I was told when I explored this. And I have excellent attic access to all the ducts and registers. I think they just don't want to do that kind of "after insulation" work, and charge accordingly. Is it my imagination or is this "emerging technology" about 30 years behind? Putting some effort into designing the ducting and throwing in some actuated dampers isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[setsailsoon]

Chris ( @setsailsoon ) is in a great place as he gets to dictate the layout and design of all aspects of his home’s mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems. It’s a nice position to be in. For those of us that are second, or third, or fourth owners of homes built long ago, we are stuck with what we have as retrofitting rarely makes any financial sense. In my own home we have no attic space and a flat/closed roof construction. All of the HVAC ducting is encased in the ceiling space with inches (maybe) of spray foam shot everywhere. There is literally no way to change any of the duct work without ripping the entire roof or ceiling apart. Sad, but it’s simply not worth fixing it and so all you can do is install the biggest AC unit you can afford and live with the inconsistent air temperatures (fans work great at moving air around) …

Someday, when Chris builds my home, I’ll pay for all the bells and whistles

Matt,

Being able to do this house the way I want is a big reason we embarked on this project. Right now we're at that critical juncture where wall and ceiling framing, cabinet sub, wall plumbing, rough in A/C, and insulation all start within a week of each other. I had all subs meet on site to make sure they know what the others are doing and resolve any conflicts. It's what I do on all large industrial projects and contractors expect it. Initially my house subs all asked why this was needed. Within 10 min of the meeting all were raving about what a great idea it was. Apparently this is just not done in home construction. I think this is saving about the same % on the house as it does on $BIL+ industrial projects. There are always a few problems where something wasn't built right or even wasn't designed right. The later these are addressed the more it costs to fix whether it's an owner cost or a subcontractor cost. We're also very fortunate that the 3 main subs are cooperating well to get the best job done for us. They were able to sort out things like lay-down areas for each and even where to park without anything having to come to me for decision. Pretty cool!

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

Almost word for word what I was told when I explored this. And I have excellent attic access to all the ducts and registers. I think they just don't want to do that kind of "after insulation" work, and charge accordingly. Is it my imagination or is this "emerging technology" about 30 years behind? Putting some effort into designing the ducting and throwing in some actuated dampers isn't exactly rocket science.

Exactly what I was thinking Dirk. So I'm running cat5 from the control center to each output register. I think they already have servo controlled registers as add-ons.