Very strange test results!

[PoolGate]

My neighbor who has a green swampy pool and has been "shocking" for the past week has some odd numbers. Not sure what to make of them. He uses exclusively the pucks but I do not see any CYA at all in his pool the tube was totally clear. I even did the test twice. It was also very hard to get a chlorine reading. It would go to clear and then a few seconds later, return to pink. I did this awhile and it seemed to stabilize. Then with the CC's it went beet red before the test started and you can see what came up from that below. Not sure what to advise other than more chlorine and keep it there and complete a slam process.

FC 6
CC 13
pH 7.4
TA 140
CH 400
CYA 0

 

[benm2010]

Did your neighbor keep up with his pool at all during the winter? Guessing he closed it in the cold climate. It's possible for CYA to be converted (or eaten or something) to ammonia. Happened to my above ground last year, pool wasn't touched during winter and when we went to start up, CYA was 0 and pool went through a ton of chlorine to kill the ammonia.

 

[JamesW]

Probably bacteria ate the CYA and converted it into ammonia.

 

[PoolGate]

So a slam should be able to fix this right? And of course add CYA to around 40.

 

[benm2010]

DO NOT ADD CYA yet. Read http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/3913-Turning-Your-Green-Swamp-Back-into-a-Sparkling-Oasis as it has a portion dedicated to this. Adding cya will only create more ammonia.

 

[PoolGate]

DO NOT ADD CYA yet. Read http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/3913-Turning-Your-Green-Swamp-Back-into-a-Sparkling-Oasis as it has a portion dedicated to this. Adding cya will only create more ammonia.

Thanks for that! I have an ammonia test from my Aquarium I'll test for it.

 

[PoolGate]

Wow! If this test is accurate, there is a TON of ammonia in the pool. It is totally off the charts.

Can someone confirm if an ammonia test for a home aquarium (API) is accurate when used in a pool?

 

[JamesW]

Chlorine will interfere with the test.

Most likely, it's ammonia.

The only other likely thing that could create such high CC levels is sulfamic acid that's found in some copper stain treat chemicals.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Yes, that’s ammonia.

It takes 10x the amount of ammonia present in FC to remove the ammonia. So if the ammonia is 10ppm, then it will take 100ppm FC to neutralize it all.

Is that test kit measuring and reporting ammonia as ammonia or is it reporting ppm Ammonia as nitrogen ?

Either way, it’s bad and the best bet may be simply draining the pool and refilling to dilute the ammonia away.

 

[PoolGate]

Yes, that’s ammonia.

It takes 10x the amount of ammonia present in FC to remove the ammonia. So if the ammonia is 10ppm, then it will take 100ppm FC to neutralize it all.

Is that test kit measuring and reporting ammonia as ammonia or is it reporting ppm Ammonia as nitrogen ?

Either way, it’s bad and the best bet may be simply draining the pool and refilling to dilute the ammonia away.

I am not sure how the test works it is the one below for aquariums. The kit also has test for Nitrites and Nitrates. All 3 are measured separately.

Amazon.com : API FRESHWATER MASTER TEST KIT 800-Test Freshwater Aquarium Water Master Test Kit : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies

 

[PoolGate]

Yes, that’s ammonia.

It takes 10x the amount of ammonia present in FC to remove the ammonia. So if the ammonia is 10ppm, then it will take 100ppm FC to neutralize it all.

Is that test kit measuring and reporting ammonia as ammonia or is it reporting ppm Ammonia as nitrogen ?

Either way, it’s bad and the best bet may be simply draining the pool and refilling to dilute the ammonia away.

So just suppose he dumped in 30 gallons of 8.25% bleach. Would that neutralize all of the ammonia or would he need to keep that FC 100 level for some period of time?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

No, without CYA, you don’t want to exceed 15ppm FC.

So the protocol is to add FC up to 10-15ppm and let the water circulate (recirculate mode is better than filtering at this point) for 10-15 minutes and then retest. The FC will likely be zero and the pool is going to stink of chloramines. You keep dosing the pool until the FC starts to hold. Once the FC starts to hold then you can bring the CYA up to 30ppm and SLAM as needed.

Chlorine and ammonia react instantly and completely. If there is ammonia in the water, there will be no chlorine, the two cannot exist simultaneously.

 

[PoolGate]

No, without CYA, you don’t want to exceed 15ppm FC.

So the protocol is to add FC up to 10-15ppm and let the water circulate (recirculate mode is better than filtering at this point) for 10-15 minutes and then retest. The FC will likely be zero and the pool is going to stink of chloramines. You keep dosing the pool until the FC starts to hold. Once the FC starts to hold then you can bring the CYA up to 30ppm and SLAM as needed.

Chlorine and ammonia react instantly and completely. If there is ammonia in the water, there will be no chlorine, the two cannot exist simultaneously.

When I did the testing yesterday, I did measure some chlorine (6) and lots of chloramines (13). As well as the ammonia level being off the charts. He had a lot of pucks in the pool (4 or so that I saw). Was I measuring the chlorine as it was being dissolved and right before it was destroyed by the ammonia? It was also strange that it was hard to get an accurate chlorine test. I would get to clear, then look 10 seconds later and the sample was turning pink again. I would add some more drops and it repeated several times. If it was me for sure I would empty and start over but he wants to try to save the water.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The fading back to pink is normal especially when the water is so high in CCs. It’s called chloramine breakthrough. You should only count the drops to the first transition from pink to clear. In that case, I bet the FC is quite low and the CCs are high. The pucks are continuously adding FC in small amounts so it’s not surprising to see a small amount of FC.

Bottom line is all the ammonia needs to be destroyed before the FC will hold. You may want to perform a diluted ammonia test with bottled water to see how much ammonia is there. Try diluting two parts bottles water with 1 part pool water and then multpily the results by 3.

If the ammonia is above 10ppm, you may want to consider a partial drain. The amount of bleach needed to clear the pool will be astronomical and the costs high. Water is cheaper than bleach where you are and so it make more sense to dilute it a little to give you a fighting chance.

 

[PoolGate]

The fading back to pink is normal especially when the water is so high in CCs. It’s called chloramine breakthrough. You should only count the drops to the first transition from pink to clear. In that case, I bet the FC is quite low and the CCs are high. The pucks are continuously adding FC in small amounts so it’s not surprising to see a small amount of FC.

Bottom line is all the ammonia needs to be destroyed before the FC will hold. You may want to perform a diluted ammonia test with bottled water to see how much ammonia is there. Try diluting two parts bottles water with 1 part pool water and then multpily the results by 3.

If the ammonia is above 10ppm, you may want to consider a partial drain. The amount of bleach needed to clear the pool will be astronomical and the costs high. Water is cheaper than bleach where you are and so it make more sense to dilute it a little to give you a fighting chance.

Thanks! So you think my aquarium ammonia test is accurate then?

 

[Demegrad9]

I'm not an expert on this whole bacteria eating CYA thing but I think part of the message here is to get the pucks out of there quick because they are feeding the problem at this point. Hopefully someone will confirm that.

 

[benm2010]

I'm not an expert on this whole bacteria eating CYA thing but I think part of the message here is to get the pucks out of there quick because they are feeding the problem at this point. Hopefully someone will confirm that.

This. Any CYA is being converted to ammonia until all the bacteria can be killed. Here is a link to Chemgeek's own struggle with ammonia including some notes about ammonia testing. https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/10519-It-Can-Happen-to-Anyone-Zero-Chlorine-CYA-gt-Ammonia

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Thanks! So you think my aquarium ammonia test is accurate then?

It’s accurate enough for the purposes of pool water analysis and getting a rough idea of the problem.

 

[PoolGate]

So our first test results of operation water salvage are in! After putting in 6 gallons of 8.25% bleach at 12:30 which I estimate should have brought FC to around 16 was down to 2 when I tested at 5:00. Shortly after 4-5 drops cleared up the sample, it started turning pink again so I did not stop or try to test chloramines.

So the pool used @ 14 parts chlorine in 4 1/2 hours. The test water jug had a strong chlorine odor. I am actually getting a readable result on my Ammonia test now. I also did a level set on my pool with same ammonia test/reagents and got perfectly yellow water (0 ammonia). So I am confident it is reading correctly.

I am not sure what it was before, well over 8. But now I think it is under 8. All pucks have been removed btw we are on straight bleach.

I am going to go back out at 8pm and see where we are at. We will add more bleach then to bring back to 16. And again we'll check tomorrow. With any luck, we'll stay ahead of the ammonia and get rid of it all. There was also a ton of light "dust" all over the bottom of the pool. I think that was dead algae?

 

[PoolGate]

Just tested again and FC is around 2. CC is 20. We are adding 5 more gallons right now and waiting about an hour to test again. Ammonia did not seem to go down at all after this last 6 gallons in a little over an hour. I hope the water is salvageable but I am having my doubts. We are so far at around 12 gallons of bleach with little change in anything. All chlorine is consumed very quickly. Ammonia may be to high to fix. We only have 10 more gallons of bleach and I doubt that will be enough.