Plaster repair always going to look noticeable?
- Thread starter socks341968
- Start date
Geez socks...I'd call the PB and Plaster owners and tell them this isn't going to work...if those are cracks, then it's time to completely regroup and have a serious meeting w all the stakeholders...Also, I would not waste anymore water...I would also save all my water receipt bills as well...or, electric bills if you have a well...Time to unplug the jug and chill for the night...good luck
Wow [emoji15] Well at least it’s insanely obvious to anyone that their ‘fix’ didn’t work. Definitely time for a meeting to determine when they are going to dig up your shell and redo the whole thing. There is no other option I wouldn’t think.
unreal!!! "It will all work on in a week"??? HOW???? NOPE, NOPE, adult word NOPE!So you are saying you can fit paper between some of the cracks??????? Is this after the 28!!!!!! jugs of acid??? 28????? unreal!
Good job putting a hold on the pavers. Where are they at this moment? Can they be locked up/hidden from someone trying to slip in and placing them? At this point I don't trust anyone with your pool and area. I would hate for them to send someone out to lay them in an effort to get you to pay them some money to help recoup all they have wasted with that replaster gone wrong.
Here is what is going to happen with your pool.........EVERYTHING OUT! It has to go back down to the dirt...........that is plaster, gunite, AND steel! They will have to send someone with a torch to cut the steel to get it out but so be it! It is on them to do it and do it right this time.
They should have never even tried to put plaster on that gunite in the first place..............they did and NOW they are going to have to eat the cost. It is going to be a big cost. They are going to lose money big time BUT that is on them!
When they take everything out, down to the dirt, your pool will be bigger than before. It looks like you have the yard for it so that is good.
Thank you becoming a supporting member. I am SO sorry it had to happen like this for you to find TFP though. I am glad we are able to be here to help and support you
Kim
Thanks for the support. I find it crazy that the pool guys looked at us like WE were crazy for the concern. Um...wow. The independent guy that looked at it today quoted us 12,000 just to take out any hollows, chip out around the returns, etc, and cover over again in plaster. Plus he said he hates colored plaster and almost refuses to do it. So, he will not be used. My thought about just covering again with more plaster is that would just crack too if there is a problem UNDER the plaster. That's like covering bad wrinkles with makeup, it's all gonna crack again at some point. Sorry, just a little bit of southern humor. I'm going to try to not think about it for the rest of the evening, and attack anew tomorrow. This is not over by far.
Kim passes Becky this 
and a with her head buried in my shoulder so she cannot see out her window.
We are here for you!
and a with her head buried in my shoulder so she cannot see out her window. We are here for you!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,937
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
After writing and rewriting this post, and then deleting most of it, I've narrowed it down to the only thing I can think of should you determine this pool is a bust (which is my gut about it).
Because you have no building/planning dept, I can think of only one other authority that would have jurisdiction to stop this madness and declare the job a redo. Except for maybe a restraining/court order. I think you should consider seeking out the Alabama Licensing Board for General Contractors and file a formal complaint. Like, today. The complaint form is probably online. Get that ball rolling, you'll probably need them involved at some point, and because these types of government agencies are typically slow, start now. You can always cancel the whole thing if you settle with the contractor, but you'll have this in your deck of cards should you need it. Because they'll contact the contractor, it'll be a clear message to him that you mean business. You can decide on the timing. Maybe you want to wait until after the conversation, but unless you come away from that meeting with a written statement from the PB that the pool is to be redone, then you should start the ball rolling.
Then I would see if I could get someone on the phone over there, explain your situation, including the urgency factor, which is the fact that the pool has no water in it and the contractor is continuing regardless of the very obvious red flags, and see if there is some way to fast track an onsite inspection by them to determine if you can legitimately/legally stop the job without losing rights. Remember, if AL is like CA, you have to give the contractor the opportunity to fix the job, or you risk giving him a way out. It's crazy in this circumstance, because he's just going from bad to worse, but you don't want to jeopardize your standing. See if the Board can step in and help you. They'll probably pass if off as a civil matter, but you never know, and worth a try. It's what I'd do in your case, and is, in fact, what I'm doing here. I'm just waiting on the CA Board response to the complaint I filed.
Hang in there. Good luck.
Alabama General Contractors Board
Because you have no building/planning dept, I can think of only one other authority that would have jurisdiction to stop this madness and declare the job a redo. Except for maybe a restraining/court order. I think you should consider seeking out the Alabama Licensing Board for General Contractors and file a formal complaint. Like, today. The complaint form is probably online. Get that ball rolling, you'll probably need them involved at some point, and because these types of government agencies are typically slow, start now. You can always cancel the whole thing if you settle with the contractor, but you'll have this in your deck of cards should you need it. Because they'll contact the contractor, it'll be a clear message to him that you mean business. You can decide on the timing. Maybe you want to wait until after the conversation, but unless you come away from that meeting with a written statement from the PB that the pool is to be redone, then you should start the ball rolling.
Then I would see if I could get someone on the phone over there, explain your situation, including the urgency factor, which is the fact that the pool has no water in it and the contractor is continuing regardless of the very obvious red flags, and see if there is some way to fast track an onsite inspection by them to determine if you can legitimately/legally stop the job without losing rights. Remember, if AL is like CA, you have to give the contractor the opportunity to fix the job, or you risk giving him a way out. It's crazy in this circumstance, because he's just going from bad to worse, but you don't want to jeopardize your standing. See if the Board can step in and help you. They'll probably pass if off as a civil matter, but you never know, and worth a try. It's what I'd do in your case, and is, in fact, what I'm doing here. I'm just waiting on the CA Board response to the complaint I filed.
Hang in there. Good luck.
Alabama General Contractors Board
Thanks everyone, and especially for the hug, Kim, lol. I needed it. We did talk with the PB yesterday and honestly, he seemed every bit as upset as we were. He did not blow us off, or seem disinterested. He just sounded very frustrated, just like we are. He has stated he will fix it again, but plans on making the manufacturer and the plaster company pay for a larger portion. We will not pay anything. (We will get this in writing, of course.) Also, he really doesn't want to use the same product that we've been using which is the Diamond Brite Tahoe Blue. I pretty much agree at this point. I hear the pebble finishes are much more durable and less finicky? Anyone know of any colors that will still give me a bright blue shade of water? I'm just thinking ahead just in case...
Well, here are my notes:
First, it's great the PB is still engaged..cheers
Next, whatever plaster company is doing this [if the same one], they a LOSING $$$$$. Therefore, they have a tendency to want to minimize anymore costs, esp for their 3rd job, so they need to be watched like hawks...if they applied too much acid, plaster manufacturer may not agree...you're in the middle, so you need to put PB back in the middle...
Finally, another costly chip-out is coming, and it needs to be more extensive [deeper] than before. As a result, you are going to get another view of your gunite. EMPHASIS, have your 3rd party concrete expert ready to go. I would go to their offices and meet them. Bring coffee/lunch, etc, but these guys might be your final salvation if the shell is bad too. At all costs, you have to get 100% confirmation that your gunite shell is not dried out and has lost it's integrity. None of my gunite would even remotely crumble when I did anything to it...the last thing you want is a decent plaster job that holds for X yrs and then your warranties are gone, then your gunite fails. Do you have a lifetime warranty on your gunite? I do on both my gunite and pebble-tec, and for $400, it's transferrable to the next owner...
Don't put the plug in the jug just yet until that gunite is certified in multiple sample areas [8-10 areas]. It's the heart and soul of your pool, just like the filter pump is the heart and soul of moving your water...
First, it's great the PB is still engaged..cheers
Next, whatever plaster company is doing this [if the same one], they a LOSING $$$$$. Therefore, they have a tendency to want to minimize anymore costs, esp for their 3rd job, so they need to be watched like hawks...if they applied too much acid, plaster manufacturer may not agree...you're in the middle, so you need to put PB back in the middle...
Finally, another costly chip-out is coming, and it needs to be more extensive [deeper] than before. As a result, you are going to get another view of your gunite. EMPHASIS, have your 3rd party concrete expert ready to go. I would go to their offices and meet them. Bring coffee/lunch, etc, but these guys might be your final salvation if the shell is bad too. At all costs, you have to get 100% confirmation that your gunite shell is not dried out and has lost it's integrity. None of my gunite would even remotely crumble when I did anything to it...the last thing you want is a decent plaster job that holds for X yrs and then your warranties are gone, then your gunite fails. Do you have a lifetime warranty on your gunite? I do on both my gunite and pebble-tec, and for $400, it's transferrable to the next owner...
Don't put the plug in the jug just yet until that gunite is certified in multiple sample areas [8-10 areas]. It's the heart and soul of your pool, just like the filter pump is the heart and soul of moving your water...
I am happy to hear he sees what you are seeing and is on top of it.
Make sure to follow what tstex says to the letter. It might be met with some (lots is my thought) of push back but it is not your job to be his friend or to make him happy. You will have to live with the outcome not him! Think and act with your head, not your heart.
Here is another to get you through thinking about all of this. We are here for you! Vent and scream if you need to. We understand!
Make sure to follow what tstex says to the letter. It might be met with some (lots is my thought) of push back but it is not your job to be his friend or to make him happy. You will have to live with the outcome not him! Think and act with your head, not your heart.
Here is another
to get you through thinking about all of this. We are here for you! Vent and scream if you need to. We understand!
I agree with the above. If your shell has not cured properly and you apply a more forgiving finish you might not see problems immediately, but you will have problems. It will be near impossible to engage the pb down the track to remedy. This could be extremely costly, both financially and emotionally down the track if not dealt with properly now.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,937
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
While I felt like others here, encouraged that the PB is engaging and agreeing, etc, I'm going to continue my somewhat gloom'n'doom approach just so you can consider the worst case, as you hope for the best.
It a possibility that the PB is in for another go only because he's been successful so far at offloading some if not all of the redo expenses onto the plaster company. And now he's stating he's going to do that again, only even more of the share this time. And that's great. For him. These are mid-four-figure pops (the replaster expenses) that are not likely going to put anybody out of business. Heck, he might even still be in the black for all we know. But as soon as he catches wind of the complete redo we're all suspecting is going to be needed, now we're talking about a mid-five-figure bomb, and that's when you need to be prepared for him to turn on you. Because he'll have no one to share that expense with, and that could put him under if he's got no liability insurance or bankroll for such a scenario. You can tip toe around this for a while, and stall on the "Call the Board" advice I gave earlier, but if that shell is as bad as we fear, then you're going to be in for a battle. I hope I am dead wrong. But I also hope you're preparing yourself that I'm not.
Just a word about tstex's "3rd party concrete expert" that he keeps referring to. (And BTW, his whole last post is dead on.) May I? You need to stop thinking about whatever expense that's going to be, or whatever delays that might cause, or whatever ill-will that might generate, as "above and beyond" the scope of this project, but instead as the critical part of this construction process you should have incurred, and paid for, all along. The piper is calling... pay him!
This is what I mean: I find it incredible that there's anywhere in this country that you can build a pool without it being properly inspected by a qualified person that is working as your advocate, at least in terms of keeping the contractor honest and holding him to well-established industry standards and codes for all aspects of the construction of a residential pool. Apparently, you live in an area that doesn't require that. But that does not mean that you should not require that. The rest of the "civilized world" has to create plans, engage engineers, acquire permits, have all those plans reviewed and approved, then allow the entire construction process to be subjected to thorough inspections, and redos if the work is substandard. Most, if not all, cities and counties charge for all those plan check and inspection services, like, a lot. Plus all the engineering expenses. Maybe thousands of dollars. You didn't seek out any of those services (no fault of your own, you didn't know to). You didn't pay for them (presumably). And now you're living through the result of that. You certainly could have, you probably should have, and now there's a growing number of your TFP supporters that are telling you that you just have to now. Pony up. Hire your own "inspector" with the money you never spent on one, and from this point forward make sure that all of the existing construction was done correctly, or rip out what wasn't and make sure the remaining construction is done correctly, including, quite possibly, the entire gunite shell.
Otherwise, you're just continuing to rely on a PB and a set of his subs to self-regulate, and to keep trying at something they've already failed at several times, catastrophically, without any oversight, and without any advocate of yours watching out for your best interests, not theirs.
Hiring your own "inspector" (expert) isn't money lost, it's money you should have spent in the first place.
I acknowledge I'm not being particularly sensitive/polite/encouraging. Sorry 'bout that. Seems like we might be past that at this point...
It a possibility that the PB is in for another go only because he's been successful so far at offloading some if not all of the redo expenses onto the plaster company. And now he's stating he's going to do that again, only even more of the share this time. And that's great. For him. These are mid-four-figure pops (the replaster expenses) that are not likely going to put anybody out of business. Heck, he might even still be in the black for all we know. But as soon as he catches wind of the complete redo we're all suspecting is going to be needed, now we're talking about a mid-five-figure bomb, and that's when you need to be prepared for him to turn on you. Because he'll have no one to share that expense with, and that could put him under if he's got no liability insurance or bankroll for such a scenario. You can tip toe around this for a while, and stall on the "Call the Board" advice I gave earlier, but if that shell is as bad as we fear, then you're going to be in for a battle. I hope I am dead wrong. But I also hope you're preparing yourself that I'm not.
Just a word about tstex's "3rd party concrete expert" that he keeps referring to. (And BTW, his whole last post is dead on.) May I? You need to stop thinking about whatever expense that's going to be, or whatever delays that might cause, or whatever ill-will that might generate, as "above and beyond" the scope of this project, but instead as the critical part of this construction process you should have incurred, and paid for, all along. The piper is calling... pay him!
This is what I mean: I find it incredible that there's anywhere in this country that you can build a pool without it being properly inspected by a qualified person that is working as your advocate, at least in terms of keeping the contractor honest and holding him to well-established industry standards and codes for all aspects of the construction of a residential pool. Apparently, you live in an area that doesn't require that. But that does not mean that you should not require that. The rest of the "civilized world" has to create plans, engage engineers, acquire permits, have all those plans reviewed and approved, then allow the entire construction process to be subjected to thorough inspections, and redos if the work is substandard. Most, if not all, cities and counties charge for all those plan check and inspection services, like, a lot. Plus all the engineering expenses. Maybe thousands of dollars. You didn't seek out any of those services (no fault of your own, you didn't know to). You didn't pay for them (presumably). And now you're living through the result of that. You certainly could have, you probably should have, and now there's a growing number of your TFP supporters that are telling you that you just have to now. Pony up. Hire your own "inspector" with the money you never spent on one, and from this point forward make sure that all of the existing construction was done correctly, or rip out what wasn't and make sure the remaining construction is done correctly, including, quite possibly, the entire gunite shell.
Otherwise, you're just continuing to rely on a PB and a set of his subs to self-regulate, and to keep trying at something they've already failed at several times, catastrophically, without any oversight, and without any advocate of yours watching out for your best interests, not theirs.
Hiring your own "inspector" (expert) isn't money lost, it's money you should have spent in the first place.
I acknowledge I'm not being particularly sensitive/polite/encouraging. Sorry 'bout that. Seems like we might be past that at this point...
Check with your state office, I believe Alabama adopted 2009 IRC ansi/nspi5
Aka ansi/APSP5
Aka ansi/APSP5
Thanks for all of the great advice from everyone. Will start calling the state offices tomorrow. Some of their links were down over the weekend. Tried to get a concrete inspection company to come down and inspect the gunite prior to plaster. None local. As far as permits and inspections go, outside of city limits, they are just about unheard of. The PB, plaster manufacturer and tech rep all said fill the pool, brush twice a day, and the cracks will be gone in 7 days. I believe that will happen right along with me winning the Alabama state lottery, (we don't have a lottery).I will follow their recommendations to a T, otherwise they would have an out. So after 7 days, brushing twice a day, and it still looks like a cracked egg, the ball is back in their court. Notify PB in writing according to the terms of the warranty. Have a sit down with them, iron everything out, put it in writing and go from their. I am no stranger to pursuing legal action against an individual or company and they know this. I am all bite,no bark. Without tipping my hand, I will also assure you my bases are well covered. Once again A BIG THANKS for all of the advice and support. Will update periodically as things change.
All good up there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ We will support you both every step of the way. You know what needs to be done and how to do it!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,937
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Update: Deep end under water approximately 72 hours, brushed twice daily, no changes noticeable to the naked eye.
No permit office to even purchase a building permit in the county. No building inspectors, nothing. You are required to be licensed by the state, but that's it. Hard to believe, but true.
No permit office to even purchase a building permit in the county. No building inspectors, nothing. You are required to be licensed by the state, but that's it. Hard to believe, but true.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,937
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
You can't do this, of course, but I'd be sorely tempted to brush one area and not another, and see if brushing is making a lick of difference. Keep brushing, you have to do what they suggest at this point. (Though unless the contract stated I was responsible for startup brushing, I'd hand them the stick and say "Have at it!")
Does your state board have a complaint filing mechanism? As I mentioned, it might be counter to PO/PB relations to file just yet. But you can find the form if there is one, familiarize, and use it as a sort of checklist of things to gather, or document, in the meantime. (Mine was two pages and took a full day to complete along with the evidence that needed to be included.)
(Though unless the contract stated I was responsible for startup brushing, I'd hand them the stick and say "Have at it!")
If the contract doesn’t say they are responsible for the brushing, you are responsible for the brushing by default.
If the contract doesn’t say they are responsible for the brushing, you are responsible for the brushing by default.
No kidding PoolGuyinCT. If only. I need rotator cuff surgery and the brushing probably isn't what it could be...lol.
Everyone, we are both originally from Texas. I'm from DFW area where people show up to fix stuff when you call them and offer money for the job. They have iron clad contracts, etc. A totally different world from here. I used to work for the state, and then the City of Plano, Tx. I get how things should be, but here, it's a different world/planet. We had a garage built when we first moved here (our retirement home after husband decided he would retire after being here for his last change of station 27 years in military), and we had a heck of a time. I would use stronger words, but they aren't allowed on this site...lol. People would show up for work at about 9 to do the masonry, and then would leave at lunch and not come back until the next day. That is life here. If stuff looks a little "off" as they say, then that's just artistry. We've been here for over 13 years and it still takes some getting used to. I'm considered very picky Our accent is worse by the day. We love parts of living here, but others are very frustrating. We live on a "private road" and all that means is that the county will not maintain your road and you are responsible for any asphalt work that may need to be done. 911 can't find you...period. The last time we called it was over an hour and they only talked to us because they were lost as they were looking for our home. We didn't show up on their GPS. The fact that the pool builder is still speaking to us is amazing at this point. The fact that he knows its a mess, and is willing to do anything without litigation is another amazing fact. The point is we could build a house in our pasture and it fall over 20 times during the process, not having running water, or have all kinds of stuff wrong, and we could still find someone to rent it and it would never be inspected. That's how it is. We had a four car garage with office built, and a 2nd floor. NO permits were required or obtained. Again, that's the way it is. Our strength of will...will be what gets us through this, and working with our pool builder in a careful and southern way, and holding them to what we know is right. Negotiation, and perseverance will be what gets us what we need. We have to be calm, but demanding, outraged, but not outrageous. Tactics that work elsewhere will not work here. I deal with it everyday in my job. The pool builder WILL fix this. He knows that otherwise, he will never hear the end of us. We don't give up. The issue is that we've been receiving information from SGM, the manufacturer of Tahoe Blue, that it's okay to have those "crazing" areas, and they will resolve. I would like to hear from anyone who has dealt with this, and did/didn't resolve. Both of us believe this to be "malarkey" We will give it the 7 days as the builder has requested, and then will send him the cracked egg style photos again. It's all about not giving up. Will keep you guys informed, and thanks for the information on how things should be! Knowledge is power.
Everyone, we are both originally from Texas. I'm from DFW area where people show up to fix stuff when you call them and offer money for the job. They have iron clad contracts, etc. A totally different world from here. I used to work for the state, and then the City of Plano, Tx. I get how things should be, but here, it's a different world/planet. We had a garage built when we first moved here (our retirement home after husband decided he would retire after being here for his last change of station 27 years in military), and we had a heck of a time. I would use stronger words, but they aren't allowed on this site...lol. People would show up for work at about 9 to do the masonry, and then would leave at lunch and not come back until the next day. That is life here. If stuff looks a little "off" as they say, then that's just artistry. We've been here for over 13 years and it still takes some getting used to. I'm considered very picky Our accent is worse by the day. We love parts of living here, but others are very frustrating. We live on a "private road" and all that means is that the county will not maintain your road and you are responsible for any asphalt work that may need to be done. 911 can't find you...period. The last time we called it was over an hour and they only talked to us because they were lost as they were looking for our home. We didn't show up on their GPS. The fact that the pool builder is still speaking to us is amazing at this point. The fact that he knows its a mess, and is willing to do anything without litigation is another amazing fact. The point is we could build a house in our pasture and it fall over 20 times during the process, not having running water, or have all kinds of stuff wrong, and we could still find someone to rent it and it would never be inspected. That's how it is. We had a four car garage with office built, and a 2nd floor. NO permits were required or obtained. Again, that's the way it is. Our strength of will...will be what gets us through this, and working with our pool builder in a careful and southern way, and holding them to what we know is right. Negotiation, and perseverance will be what gets us what we need. We have to be calm, but demanding, outraged, but not outrageous. Tactics that work elsewhere will not work here. I deal with it everyday in my job. The pool builder WILL fix this. He knows that otherwise, he will never hear the end of us. We don't give up. The issue is that we've been receiving information from SGM, the manufacturer of Tahoe Blue, that it's okay to have those "crazing" areas, and they will resolve. I would like to hear from anyone who has dealt with this, and did/didn't resolve. Both of us believe this to be "malarkey" We will give it the 7 days as the builder has requested, and then will send him the cracked egg style photos again. It's all about not giving up. Will keep you guys informed, and thanks for the information on how things should be! Knowledge is power.