new pool in tucson az

Interesting............I wonder if having a sub pump to drain the pool you can use as needed would be enough.

Can you please post the exact wording of that requirement so I can learn with you? :hug:

Kim:kim:

Was vague and poorly worded, but I called to get clarification, and it turns out that where t states that it needs to be "designed and manufactured such that the pool water can be evacuated by removing plugs or manipulating valves", they were only referring to the water in the equipment, not in the pool. So no floor drain is required. False alarm.
 
good morning,
thank you for all the input. and yes Dirk, that got me "spinning" Could we back track real quick. Are you guys saying there is no need for a floor drain? From what I am getting, the drain isnt necessarily for cleaning, but just a method to "drain" the pool through the pump?
I am like MinerJason, If i read the Marana code right, the code says, "minimum of 2 outlets, separated by at least 3 feet and on different vertical planes. could be 2 vertical walls, vertical wall and floor.
I appreciate your plan Dirk for me to suggest a clarification in the code, but I am being honest, I need them to be my friend, more than me putting in a drain.

With that said, does the floor drain have to be 2 of them? I seen the rectangle one and the circle one, you guys posted, that could be "pebble teched" over. do I just need one? Does that meet the "safety requirements"

I tried to copy and paste the section on suction (wow), however I can not figure out how to make that happen.

I looked briefly into the "robot" cleaners, they are electric driven and around $800-$1000? I think that will be an expense after the initial shock of the pool.
 
Sorry for the spin! Just keep asking questions until your RPM subsides! ;)

It is VERY important not to alienate your building dept peeps. I agree, that is a higher priority than the drain issue. After a chat with, and an "OK, go ahead" from, your PB (who (1) will have to deal with the planning dept as much or more than you and (2) might know who to talk to, or how to talk to them, based on his past permitting experiences) I would go down to the planning dept desk in person and introduce yourself. Be ultra nice and patient, and play a little dumb, non-confrontational, and have them help you with this issue. I've dealt with two different building dept staffs, and they're just people like us all that don't like being griped at and pushed around, and who appreciate someone that asks for help and treats them with respect. Then you can ask your questions and get to where you want to be.

OK next. It is my understanding that drains are used primarily for two reasons. And now-a-days really only one. Before auto-vacs and robots, people used to sweep their pools and manually vacuum them. One method was to brush from the sides down, towards the drain, and let the drain suck up debris. So yes, they can be used for cleaning, but with today's auto-cleaning systems that use is pretty much gone. The primary reason for a drain is for circulation. A properly designed pool will utilize returns and skimmers to get your water rotating in such a way that the skimmer can suck up debris, from the water as well as the surface. The "dead spots" can be down low, so the drains take up the slack. But if your returns are designed correctly, they can mix up the lower water with the upper water and improve the effectiveness of the skimmer, eliminating the need for a drain. Auto-vac systems do the rest. Proper circulation and the skimmer take care of the particulate matter throughout the pool, the vacuum takes care of the stuff on the bottom that won't "fly" into the moving water and eventually into the skimmer. Suction-side vacuum systems help additionally, as they are pulling water into the main filter from all around the bottom of the pool. Pressure-side vacs help too. That's what that tail is doing. It swishes debris off the surface into the water so circulation and the skimmer can get at it. Robots do less for circulation than the other types of vacs do, but they're still brushing and agitating down low, to help the skimming. And all vacs are collecting debris, big and small, all along the bottom. So between a well-designed set of returns, and a vacuum, needing a drain for circulation is not necessary.

The exception to all this is big, commercial pools, where drains are more commonly required (and codes mandate them). The pool is too big and wide, with too much bather load, to get away with no drains. The drains create the circulation necessary out away from the skimmers where there are way more dead spots than in a smaller residential pool. Which is very unfortunate, because a lot of the drain accidents happen in commercial pools.

Draining a pool using the drain and your pool pump is not usually done. And there is no need to do it that way. (Why the heck to they call them drains, then!?!) If you have to remove the water, you throw in a small portable pump with a big hose and drain through that. It's way more efficient, and solves the very real problem of what happens at the end. When it finishes at 4 am and you're sound asleep, those portable pumps have sensors that shut themselves off. Your main pump? Not so much. It'll run dry and could overheat. Some have safeguards for that, but you gamble on that with a $50 portable, not a $1000 VS pump!

So drains are for circulation, and IMHO the danger they introduce into your pool is not worth having them, not when you can add a few returns down low and get rid of them all together. That, I believe, is why the trend now is to build pools without them.

But here's the biggie (now that we've conquered the building dept), your PB needs to be on board with this plan, and more importantly, know how to design a drain-less circulation system. That's critical, and part of your discussion with him before you go down to the planning dept.

With me so far?

If MinerJason is right, and you don't need drains (and don't want drains) then all your questions about "2 outlets and separation and vertical planes" are moot. Forget all that.

If you do decide to eliminate drains, you have one more consideration in terms of safety. The vacuum port. If it were my pool, I would plumb in a vacuum port. As another wrote, even with his robot, he uses that port for spot vacuuming. So with that port, you'll have all your options. It can be used for spot vacuuming. It can be used for suction-side vacuuming. It can be replumbed at the pad to accommodate pressure-side systems, and it can be left unused at all if you go with a robot. You can buy a $500 vac now, and use the port. Then you can switch to a robot when you're ready and ignore the port. Or you can use it to manually vacuum the pool until you decide what auto system you want to splurge on.

That said, as I pointed out before, a vacuum port can be just as dangerous as a drain, even more so, because it is closer to the surface and its very concentrated suction as compared to a drain cover. They have been known to eviscerate a person. Yep, sorry to have to paint that picture. I describe in a previous post how to get around most of that danger, but if you want the safest possible pool, you leave that out. Or install it just to have it, but you take off its outer fitting and screw in a plug that would render it suck-proof (unless your kids swim around with a crescent wrench!).

If I've completely misunderstood your post, and you decide (or have already decided) you do want a drain after all, then we can revisit all your questions about drain configurations...

Edit:

I just reread this and I was a bit misleading. Circulation is cleaning, so to the extent drains help circulation, yes, they are still used for cleaning. What I meant by "they are no longer used for cleaning" was the "old style" cleaning, where crud was pushed into them with a brush.
 
I am a OB, I was just going to go with the standard, 2 drain in floor, 3 feet apart and the skimmer..

Not sure what "OB" means... ;)

If you're going to have drains, and like the pebble/plaster on top, then show those web pages to your builder, and the planning dept, and if they're OK with them then they'll tell you how many and where to put 'em. EZPZ

It's mostly code- and engineering-controlled, so you won't likely have a lot of say or options. If you have to put one on the wall, maybe you'll get a vote on which wall, so you can decide what looks best based on from where you'll be viewing your pool most.
 
good morning,
thank you for all the input. and yes Dirk, that got me "spinning" Could we back track real quick. Are you guys saying there is no need for a floor drain? From what I am getting, the drain isnt necessarily for cleaning, but just a method to "drain" the pool through the pump?
I am like MinerJason, If i read the Marana code right, the code says, "minimum of 2 outlets, separated by at least 3 feet and on different vertical planes. could be 2 vertical walls, vertical wall and floor.
I appreciate your plan Dirk for me to suggest a clarification in the code, but I am being honest, I need them to be my friend, more than me putting in a drain.

With that said, does the floor drain have to be 2 of them? I seen the rectangle one and the circle one, you guys posted, that could be "pebble teched" over. do I just need one? Does that meet the "safety requirements"

I tried to copy and paste the section on suction (wow), however I can not figure out how to make that happen.

I looked briefly into the "robot" cleaners, they are electric driven and around $800-$1000? I think that will be an expense after the initial shock of the pool.

The part of the code you're quoting is only one of the 4 methods listed for staying code compliant, and those 4 methods are all subject to the "If..." at the start of the section. I don't believe you need a floor drain to stay code compliant. I thought so earlier simply based on the requirement to be able to drain the pool water, but it turns out the pool water they're talking about draining is just from the pool equipment (pump, filter, etc.).

Here's the entire section you were quoting from:
( d) If the suction outlet system, such as a filtration system, automatic cleaning system,solar system etc., has a single suction outlet, or multiple suction outlets which can be isolated by
valves, each suction outlet shall conform to International Association of Plumbing and
Mechanical Officials Standard ANSI/ ASME A 112.19 8M-l 987 to protect against bather
entrapment by either:
1. An approved antivortex cover.
2. A twelve inch by twelve inch (12" x 12 ") or larger grate.
3. Other approved means such as venting or VRS.
4. A minimum of two (2) suction outlets provided for each pump in the suction outlet
system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3') or located on two (2) different planes; i.e. one
(1) on the bottom and one (1} on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These
suction outlets shall be plumbed such that water is drawn through them simultaneously through a
common line to the pump.
 
The part of the code you're quoting is only one of the 4 methods listed for staying code compliant, and those 4 methods are all subject to the "If..." at the start of the section. I don't believe you need a floor drain to stay code compliant. I thought so earlier simply based on the requirement to be able to drain the pool water, but it turns out the pool water they're talking about draining is just from the pool equipment (pump, filter, etc.).

Here's the entire section you were quoting from:

Well, that's a can of worms. That definitely doesn't define a drain as required, for sure, but rather what to do if you have a drain. That doesn't mean the requirement isn't elsewhere in the code, though. Again, a conversation with the planning dept is the way to go. If they sign off on no drains, then it's on them.

But what about the other "sources of suction?" If there's no drain, and water is being drawn only from the skimmer, is that hole at the bottom of the skimmer box, under the basket, compliant? Not according to those four line items. Not on my pool anyway, it's just a hole. Maybe by the ANSI/ ASME code?

Now that I've eliminated my drains, do my vacuum port and skimmer port quality as compliant, as they are on opposite sides of the pool? What about when I remove the vac and the little vacuum port flap closes (for safety)? That reduces my system to one, the skimmer. Is that compliant? And because of the three-way valve I have controlling the suction from both ports into the pump (automated or not), if I close off one side or the other, does that make my pool non-compliant? I can't argue it isn't less safe when I close off that skimmer port.

I'm not asking for myself (different local codes, and I've done what I've done, not gunna change it). Just posing the questions should JustinS decide to use any of our (my?) schemes...

Maybe I need to take a look at what "venting or VRS" means, so I can see if I can make my system safer. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack. Point is, JustinS has got to get the PB and the Planning Dept involved, no matter what solution he decides on (drains, no drains, vacuum port, no vacuum port) to figure out the safest system...

And a good lesson learned, just because I did what I did, and it works, and can make a compelling case for why, doesn't mean it's safe, or up to code. Monkeying with my own plumbing, even if it makes sense to me, should be done with the caveat that it might not be the right way to go. So, sorry to say JustinS, use my ideas as they were intended, as a jumping off point to maybe make your pool safer and more to your liking, but ultimately leave it to the pros and authorities to verify. (Not that you weren't going to do that anyway.) OK, enough of my hot air...

Edit:

Wait, not done yet!! Just to belabor, and in my defense, I didn't actually do any of this myself. I hired licensed contractors to do it, both the deleting of the drains and the reconfiguration of the skimmer/vacuum port plumbing. If they modified my system (even at my direction) and made it unsafe, who's really to blame? Point is, even pros get it wrong (like, a lot), so talking through it here, even my kookie ideas, might finally get to the bottom of what is best practice...
 
OB=Owner build............for most is means they hire out for each part of the pool as needed. For some it does mean THEY do the work. Not sure where Jason falls in this.

OB...OK! Thanks. Then who does the engineering, calc’s, plumbing system design, etc? TFP? :shock:
 
The trades people he hires. Instead the people just showing up because the paid pool builder (PB) told them to, the OB person has to find them, get bids from them, then make sure they know when to show up to do their work, etc. It is a lot of work but can be worth it!

Kim:kim:
 

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Awesome! Did you figure out what you're going to do with the drains? Just curious: other than the questions you've posted here, what resource are you using to determine your OB tasks? Is there a book or online guide or something? Where to start? What to do? Order of things to do? Sub's to hire? Checklists? Etc? I'm a big believer in "If you want it done right, do it yourself!" But how does one learn how to build a pool? Good for you. Keep the updates and pic's coming, when you can. We're following along here, and cheering for you...
 
hello, my OB plan, may not be the best, but, here is how I am doing it. I have a friend that has done 3 pools, he has helped, got me in the right direction. I also looked online and found a website about a guy that has done this. I am not sure I can post the website on THIS site. (if I can, please let me know and I will), the next step is I approach the other homes in my neighborhood that are getting pools. I ask the contractors if they are working for the company or independent. everyone of them except one electrician, was more than willing to talk and offer his services, either through the company he works for or side jobs. the hard part or atleast for me is getting subs to respond, maybe they are busy, but some are super friendly on the phone, ask me to send them the plans and then....nothing.
 
i forgot to mention, when i had the company come and dig, the operator, looked over the plans, and help suggest a couple of things. the biggest was the steps. I originally, just wanted normal steps, my thinking was for more room to swim. His suggestion was, a larger first step, almost a lagoon, and then the other steps. this is what he said, "let me leave the step like I am saying, if you like it, great, if not, I will just take the extra dirt out" I do believe someone on the site, "Esloser" suggested adding the sitting area. so glad the operator and Esloser suggested it. makes a huge difference. here is a picture of them digging, I couldn't add before.

- - - Updated - - -

420032C7-AEF4-4520-BE69-2452F3499F95.jpg

- - - Updated - - -

Only one sprinkler broken during digging. I assume that is acceptable

- - - Updated - - -

if the plumping picture looks like a muddy mess, you are correct. Thankfully we had 2.5 days of slow rain, but man, between the pool and the dirt from the footer for extending the wall, i have mud everywhere, however the dog LOVES to run around and track in the house. (thank goodness 90% tile)
 
hello, my OB plan, may not be the best, but, here is how I am doing it. I have a friend that has done 3 pools, he has helped, got me in the right direction. I also looked online and found a website about a guy that has done this. I am not sure I can post the website on THIS site. (if I can, please let me know and I will), the next step is I approach the other homes in my neighborhood that are getting pools. I ask the contractors if they are working for the company or independent. everyone of them except one electrician, was more than willing to talk and offer his services, either through the company he works for or side jobs. the hard part or atleast for me is getting subs to respond, maybe they are busy, but some are super friendly on the phone, ask me to send them the plans and then....nothing.

That's the contractor shuffle. Happens to me all the time (not just pool contractors, all of 'em). Not sure why. It's why I do everything I can myself. They're fishing, maybe, gathering possible projects, then going with their best bet. Most are not courteous enough to even call you back to say "Thanks, but no thanks." Your biggest challenge with the subs might be your "OBiness." By that I mean: if it's between working for you or a PB, then a sub might figure the PB will give him more work in the future, or that he should be loyal to a PB that's been a regular source of income all along. So you might get shuffled to the back of his queue, or ignored altogether, since they'll think you're a one-time-deal. The worst ones won't even say no, but rather say yes, lead you on, and then flake (that's happened to me, too, very frustrating). And then you'll get stacked up, waiting for one sub who is holding up the next subs, etc. One way around that, I might suggest, is to have a solid contract which includes performance clauses. Not exactly sure what those look like, but the short version is: each sub's contract will include start and stop dates, with a substantial financial penalty if they don't begin and/or end on time. That might help keep them in line. You'll probably find examples on line. The challenge will be to get them to sign such a thing, or even respond to you once they know you'll be asking for such a thing. But at least you'll know up front, if they won't consider a performance clause, then they would probably flake on you anyway. Whew. Sorry, don't mean to be a downer, just sharing in case that helps you avoid what is a common general contractor pitfall.

i forgot to mention, when i had the company come and dig, the operator, looked over the plans, and help suggest a couple of things. the biggest was the steps. I originally, just wanted normal steps, my thinking was for more room to swim. His suggestion was, a larger first step, almost a lagoon, and then the other steps. this is what he said, "let me leave the step like I am saying, if you like it, great, if not, I will just take the extra dirt out" I do believe someone on the site, "Esloser" suggested adding the sitting area. so glad the operator and Esloser suggested it. makes a huge difference. here is a picture of them digging, I couldn't add before.

I see those sun decks a lot in new builds. I don't get 'em. Personal preference, I guess. I've never had one, so can't really talk. But I think I wouldn't get much use out of one myself. If I want to lay around, it's right next to my pool, on a nice lounge with a towel, my pillow, with a little side table, with my snack and drink and phone, etc. I don't think I'd be as comfortable trying that surrounded by water. But I see them a lot, so I must be missing something about them. I suppose my g-kids would like one, especially the little one, for splashing around on. There's no other place she can stand except on the steps. The other thing to consider, if they're shallow enough: no cleaner will get up there, so that's a surface that'll need to be vacuumed/brushed manually. I have to brush all my steps (sometimes my vac will clean the bottom two, but not regularly) so I figure the less surface area they are, the less work. I think I've read here that robots are better than vac's on steps, but that the top step eludes even them, too. The bigger that top step is, I think that means the more you'll need to clean yourself. Maybe others here can weigh in on why else a sundeck is cool.

Geez, not much help from me today, sorry...
 
The sun shelf is great for just getting your feet wet, sitting on to chat if you don't really want to swim, littles playing on, pets to romp on, etc. Many uses but also many pools without them that are enjoyed by everyone in them!

You did what I call "pulling strings" to find subs. You start with one you like and does good work and go from there. Some strings might get "broken" due to no call back or such but keep pulling until you are done.

Good for you for listening to the digger! They have been doing it for a long time so know all of the small tricks to make things better.

Kim:kim:
 
The sun shelf is great for just getting your feet wet, sitting on to chat if you don't really want to swim, littles playing on, pets to romp on, etc. Many uses but also many pools without them that are enjoyed by everyone in them!

My daughter doesn't really like to swim all that much. (It's why I have to heat my pool to 95°, so she'll get in!) But her kids sure do. I could see her on a shelf, on a chair. Keeping an eye on her littles, without getting very wet. That make sense... Me, I'm either on the deck watching them, or neck deep playing with them... So it might be just me anti-sundeck...
 

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