Is my pump motor power supply 1 or 2 phase?

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M

msdunkel

0
Jul 24, 2017
73
Fayetteville/GA
I have a 1.5 HP main pump which was replaced 19 months ago and it is already failing. The pump is labeled for 1 phase power but there are two switches on the breaker panel to control the pump. Is it possible I have 2p power and they installed a 1p motor, or would that have fried instantly and not 19 months later? Here is a picture of my panel, the left single switch is for the vacuum the 2 on the right are tied together and is for the main pump (which is odd since the left timer is for the main motor and the right timer is my vacuum motor). They are all 20A.

Thanks!

EDIT: no idea why the picture rotated 90 degrees to the right, it looks correct on my computer. BTW, I know the timer on the right isn't doing anything. My boost pump is dead as well so I just removed the on/off switches.

View attachment 71392
 
In the US most homes are wired with a single phase at 240v delivered on two "hot" wires and a neutral that allows you to split the 240v down to two 120v circuits. This is sometimes called dual/split phase, but the motor isn't treating it as 2 separate phases it is treating it as a single phase at 240v. Since both sides of the connection to the motor are hot they are both switched. If it were a 120v motor, one connection would be the neutral, which doesn't have to be switched as it isn't hot. I wouldn't think a 120v motor would last at all if wired for 240v.

I'm not sure I can help too much with why a pump would be failing so soon, but more info might help.
How it is failing? (Failing to start, making noises, other?)
Has it ever been run dry?
Any signs of water leaking around/under it?
 
Jimrahbe said:
ms,

dfahrion is spot on with his post... /\ /\ /\

Your new pump may be failing, but it has nothing to do with how it is wired.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.
Click to expand...

thanks!

dfahrion said:
In the US most homes are wired with a single phase at 240v delivered on two "hot" wires and a neutral that allows you to split the 240v down to two 120v circuits. This is sometimes called dual/split phase, but the motor isn't treating it as 2 separate phases it is treating it as a single phase at 240v. Since both sides of the connection to the motor are hot they are both switched. If it were a 120v motor, one connection would be the neutral, which doesn't have to be switched as it isn't hot. I wouldn't think a 120v motor would last at all if wired for 240v.

I'm not sure I can help too much with why a pump would be failing so soon, but more info might help.
How it is failing? (Failing to start, making noises, other?)
Has it ever been run dry?
Any signs of water leaking around/under it?
Click to expand...

There is a pretty good leak where the motor and pump are attached. I took it apart, inspected and lubricated the gasket with no luck. The pump is making an atrociously loud noise but is still pumping. It has never been run dry. BTW, thanks for the comprehensive answer. I plan to buy a replacement and didn't want to buy a replacement and instantly fry it :). Pool company is ridiculous, basically double the cost if I got through them.
 
Most likely, the main pump and the booster pump are 240 and the booster pump timer line in should come from the main pump timer load out terminals.

Both pumps should be on the same breaker.

The pumps might be wired incorrectly or wired for the wrong voltage.

If just the motor was replaced, they might have put an undersized motor on the pump.

You need to make sure that the pump timers are wired correctly and that the voltage selector in the pumps matches the voltage supplied.

Update: I just saw your latest post. The seal is probably bad, which will get water in the motor and ruin the bearings.

I would file a warranty claim with the installer.
 
JamesW said:
Most likely, the main pump and the booster pump are 240 and the booster pump timer line in should come from the main pump timer load out terminals.

Both pumps should be on the same breaker.

The pumps might be wired incorrectly or wired for the wrong voltage.

If just the motor was replaced, they might have put an undersized motor on the pump.

You need to make sure that the pump timers are wired correctly and that the voltage selector in the pumps matches the voltage supplied.

Update: I just saw your latest post. The seal is probably bad, which will get water in the motor and ruin the bearings.

I would file a warranty claim with the installer.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I called the installer and they have mysteriously not called me back... They wanted $155 to just come out and look at my set-up which is perfectly understandable considering they're all of 7 miles away and probably pay their guys $10/hour. I told them no, you replaced it, I can tell you the model # of the pump you put on and I have a copy of the invoice. That's when they said they'd call me back in an hour to let me know if it was covered by warranty. That was 4 hours ago. Every time I call a pool company I just end up mad. I guess they're just used to dealing with people who have more money than time (or sense perhaps). I don't mind paying but I can't stand being ripped off.
 
JamesW said:
Most likely, the main pump and the booster pump are 240 and the booster pump timer line in should come from the main pump timer load out terminals.

Both pumps should be on the same breaker.

The pumps might be wired incorrectly or wired for the wrong voltage.
Click to expand...

James,

I can understand if they put in the wrong size motor, but how would it be possible for it to run for 19 months if it were wired wrong??? Sorry, but that just does not make sense to me. :confused:

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
I think that, in some cases, a pump can run on the wrong voltage. Most of the time, it won't run properly.

I think that a motor wired for 240 but receiving 120 will be more likely to work than a motor wired for 120 but receiving 240.

If the motor is oversized for the impeller, low voltage is more likely to make the motor work than if the motor were fully loaded.

In any case, motors should never intentionally be run on the wrong voltage.

In this case, I think that the seal failed, water got in the motor and then the bearings failed.
 
If the voltage is low, I think that it will run. I will try it when I get a chance.

I don't think that I will try putting 240 volts when the voltage selector is set for 120 because I think that that would probably ruin the motor.
 

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Hmm... 240 volt uses 2 hot wires and a neutral (and probably a ground). 120 of course is 1 hot, a neutral and a ground. I don't know how you would physically wire a 120 volt motor for 220 volts or vica versa.
 
I'd say that is 240 volt.

How many wires are coming into that motor? 3 or 4? The green is ground but could also be acting as the neutral. You can see the "230" numbers and looks like that is a knob to switch between 125/230. Is there a white wire anywhere? You can use a volt meter to see what has power and what does not. Connect each of those pink one at a time - 1 to pink, 1 to that ground and see if they both show 120 volts. If so, it is 240 volt.
 
PoolGate said:
I'd say that is 240 volt.

How many wires are coming into that motor? 3 or 4? The green is ground but could also be acting as the neutral. You can see the "230" numbers and looks like that is a knob to switch between 125/230. Is there a white wire anywhere? You can use a volt meter to see what has power and what does not. Connect each of those pink one at a time - 1 to pink, 1 to that ground and see if they both show 120 volts. If so, it is 240 volt.
Click to expand...

Thanks. My guess is 230 would also explain why I have a double circuit breaker instead of a single. There are no other wires going into the motor other than the external ground which is a pretty heavy gauge.
 
PoolGate said:
Hmm... 240 volt uses 2 hot wires and a neutral (and probably a ground). 120 of course is 1 hot, a neutral and a ground. I don't know how you would physically wire a 120 volt motor for 220 volts or vica versa.
Click to expand...

240 volt uses 2 wires with 240v measured between them, 120 volt uses 2 wires with 120v measured between them. Neutral doesn't go to the motor for 240v. So just looking at the number of wires doesn't really tell you anything, both need 2 wires to make it work. The wiring pictured has 2 wires plus ground. The ground is only for safety it isn't actually needed to make the motor work, but I wouldn't run it without it, similar to the bonding wire. Both wires are red suggesting both are probably hot. The selector is set to 230v, so everything suggests it is wired as 240v.

Motors don't like water, if there is a water leak (bad seal or maybe even bad seal plate) it can quickly ruin the bearings. The symptoms also point to a water leak causing a bearing failure, not a wiring problem. A wiring problem would cause overheating, smoke or something like that. Also I'm not sure I would want to try the 120v on a 240v motor experiment someone suggested on a good motor, too low of voltage could cause the motor to fail to start, which could cause it to overheat and possibly lead to damage. I may be wrong on that, but I wouldn't want to risk it.

Was just the motor replaced or was the whole pump replaced? I wonder if just the motor was replaced if a seal wasn't replaced or the new one was bad or something like that, that could cause a quicker failure. If this is a whole new pump, any idea how long the warranty was? If it was only a year you might be out of luck.
 
dfahrion said:
240 volt uses 2 wires with 240v measured between them, 120 volt uses 2 wires with 120v measured between them. Neutral doesn't go to the motor for 240v. So just looking at the number of wires doesn't really tell you anything, both need 2 wires to make it work. The wiring pictured has 2 wires plus ground. The ground is only for safety it isn't actually needed to make the motor work, but I wouldn't run it without it, similar to the bonding wire. Both wires are red suggesting both are probably hot. The selector is set to 230v, so everything suggests it is wired as 240v.

Motors don't like water, if there is a water leak (bad seal or maybe even bad seal plate) it can quickly ruin the bearings. The symptoms also point to a water leak causing a bearing failure, not a wiring problem. A wiring problem would cause overheating, smoke or something like that. Also I'm not sure I would want to try the 120v on a 240v motor experiment someone suggested on a good motor, too low of voltage could cause the motor to fail to start, which could cause it to overheat and possibly lead to damage. I may be wrong on that, but I wouldn't want to risk it.

Was just the motor replaced or was the whole pump replaced? I wonder if just the motor was replaced if a seal wasn't replaced or the new one was bad or something like that, that could cause a quicker failure. If this is a whole new pump, any idea how long the warranty was? If it was only a year you might be out of luck.
Click to expand...

Just the motor was replaced, I purchased the home in 2015, the pool was already there and have no idea how old the pump is. I have ordered a new motor/pump combination from Amazon, they had a pump identical to the one I already have so it looks like it will be a very simple job. Also on the good side, the pump/motor combination costs about $200 less than just the motor from the local pool company. When you account for the $155 labor charge I'm going to save $355 and have a new motor AND pump. I also ordered a new boost pump so I can stop all this manual vacuuming, what a pain that is!!!

Amazon.com : Pentair 340039 SuperFlo High Performance Single Speed Pool Pump, 1½ Horsepower, 115/230 Volt, 1 Phase : Swimming Pool Water Pumps : Garden Outdoor
Amazon.com : Hayward 6060 0.75 HP Booster Pump : Swimming Pool Pump Accessories : Garden Outdoor
 
If a 220v motor is wired to 110, it will run at half speed. If a 110 v motor is wired to 220v it will fry in 2 seconds.

I have made both these mistakes before.

It seems apparent that the leak and the loud bearings are the only issue here.
Usually, the culprit is a pump that has run hot causing the seal to fail. More rarely, the seal is damaged by debris.
I don't see how an installer can be held accountable for seal damage a year and a half later, or two weeks later for that matter.
A seal will go 15+ years if it never overheats.
I highly suspect the pump had run dry at some point, though the owner may not have been aware.
 
Mayorb said:
If a 220v motor is wired to 110, it will run at half speed. If a 110 v motor is wired to 220v it will fry in 2 seconds.

I have made both these mistakes before.

It seems apparent that the leak and the loud bearings are the only issue here.
Usually, the culprit is a pump that has run hot causing the seal to fail. More rarely, the seal is damaged by debris.
I don't see how an installer can be held accountable for seal damage a year and a half later, or two weeks later for that matter.
A seal will go 15+ years if it never overheats.
I highly suspect the pump had run dry at some point, though the owner may not have been aware.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how it would run dry without my knowledge. I never run the motor with any of the covers removed nor do I change the position of the sand filter's handle while the pump is running. Whenever I clean the basket the water level drops a couple inches, but it refills within 5-10 seconds when I restart the motor. No possible way to avoid that, when I try to add water to prime the water level in the basket rises but due to gravity the water drains into the pool. The seal could have become damaged when my sand filter failed. I didn't know any better and kept running the pump and dumped sand into the pool for nearly 2 weeks before I got around to repairing it. I was stuck in limbo between determining if I should fix it myself or paying the highway robbery prices the pool companies wanted to charge. I ended up fixing that myself but it looks like I'll pay highway robbery prices in the end since it appears my delay cost me another $600+ in mechanical failures. Had I known it would fry my boost pump and likely my main pump, I'd have attended to the repair sooner. :(

I don't blame the installer for the problem, but not calling me back after they said they'd call back in an hour is a foul. I don't own a pool company and have no idea what their margins are, but they are training me to get smart on my own pool. You'd think they were sending an anesthesiologist over to do the work at the rates they are charging.
 

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