Desprerate for some setup advice.

[Robbie2883]

Long story short, I’m finishing the plumbing job my contractor couldn’t get right and electricians will be here Monday to wire so I want to make sure to get this setup right. I had all new equipment put in and a paramount in ground cleaning system installed. The contractor told me I needed two pumps. One to run the cleaning system and one to run everything else. This doesn’t make ton of sense since they both need to share the same filter, skimmer etc. what I have are as follows:

pool with step jets
two surface returns
water feature
1 skimmer
6 Down sweep jets
4 pop up heads and the main drain

equipment:
jandy proflo vs
jandy proflo single stage
jandy cartridge filter
hayward salt chlorinated system


the current system was originally plumbed with the paramount cleaning system on the single stage and not running through the filter or the sale cell. That’s obviously not right since nothing in the “cleaning” system would get filtered or clorinated.

Fast forward to my contractor replumbing because cause I told him it was wrong, and now he got rid of the smooth sweep elbow out of the vs pump, ran them in parallel and then hard tee’d into the output of the filter but before the salt cell.

help. How the heck should this be plumbed? Here are a couple pics for reference. The valves after the salt cell go to the stairs, top returns and water feature.

 

[Catanzaro]

Regarding how this should be plumbed, maybe someone else will chime in. Although, having 2 pumps may not be a bad idea. My friend, who has only 1 pump (2 hp) and had a paramount system (2 heads which were removed) and cut out of the system during renovation has issues to this day with his pool. I figured getting rid of the paramount would do the trick as it was not necessary in the pool.

He has 3 returns in the pool, 2 in the steps, one cleaner line, spillover spa with jets and walk out steps. A total of 15 returns with cleaner and 1.5" plumbing. You have to shut off half the system to have enough flow/volume on the way back to keep just 5 returns going. I have no idea what the builder did, but the design is bad. He also has a Polaris pump as well. So having multiple pumps is best, if designed properly.

Mas985 will be better at answering these questions, but what do you feel is wrong with the current set up that needs to be changed?

 

[cfherrman]

Ok, so the output of your pumps is the top correct?

The imput of the filter is towards the pumps correct?

The output of the filter is by the salt cell correct?

None of that setup is going to work, your pumps outputs are tied together and one pump can pump past the other as there is no check valves. The output of the sand filter is tee'd with no way to control flow. There also is dwv sweep 90's that are no good and will need to be removed.

What is the long pipe that is tee'd by the filter and salt cell that run around everything and goes into ground by the returns?

I'm guessing but do not know that the floor cleaner just knocks dirt loose to be sucked up by the regular pump to be filter, this might be why it's not on the filter.

We will figure it out

 

[Robbie2883]

ok, first off, a HUGE thank you to everyone willing to help me out. this project has bee nightmare for the past 9 months. it's been highly stressful thanks to a shady contractor but i can finally see the end in sight. just need to get the plumbing setup right.

Here is a rough sketch for the current plumbing setup. what is a dwv sweep?

FYI the water feature is a 24" brilliant wonders sheet fountain.

 

[cfherrman]

Drain Waste Vent, the problem is they are not pressure rated and the glue joint is half or 3/4 of a sch 40 90. Replace all sweeps that are not sch 40, sch 40 sweeps are not a common item, with regular schedule 40 90's. Don't worry about them being a 'hard' 90, they work greatly for our needs

I'm guessing that pipe that makes a huge long U after the filter is the floor cleaner returns. If so you either need to run the system to see if the pressure requirements are correct to be valveless or you need either a 3 way or two regular valves here.

To expand on valveless, my experience with pumps is great, but experience with pumps in a pool setting is limited. In theory one could setup pop up returns to be shut on low pressure regular clean flow and open on high flow/pressure. If this is true for floor cleaners then your output is fine, if not valves and you switching them will be needed. Someone who knows will be along to help about that.

Your pumps output in tandem will not work as one pump could overpower the other and just circulate right there, almost a gurantee when one pump is off. My feeling on this is one vsd that has the hp of your floor cleaner pump and then you turn it down for regular pool use. To use as is you will need a check after the output of each pump. Again need a better pool pump guy to confirm.

 

[Robbie2883]

Drain Waste Vent, the problem is they are not pressure rated and the glue joint is half or 3/4 of a sch 40 90. Replace all sweeps that are not sch 40, sch 40 sweeps are not a common item, with regular schedule 40 90's. Don't worry about them being a 'hard' 90, they work greatly for our needs

I'm guessing that pipe that makes a huge long U after the filter is the floor cleaner returns. If so you either need to run the system to see if the pressure requirements are correct to be valveless or you need either a 3 way or two regular valves here.

To expand on valveless, my experience with pumps is great, but experience with pumps in a pool setting is limited. In theory one could setup pop up returns to be shut on low pressure regular clean flow and open on high flow/pressure. If this is true for floor cleaners then your output is fine, if not valves and you switching them will be needed. Someone who knows will be along to help about that.

Your pumps output in tandem will not work as one pump could overpower the other and just circulate right there, almost a gurantee when one pump is off. My feeling on this is one vsd that has the hp of your floor cleaner pump and then you turn it down for regular pool use. To use as is you will need a check after the output of each pump. Again need a better pool pump guy to confirm.

Thanks for the input. Hopefully someone will chime in with the routing for everything and I can get this knocked out.

 

[tstex]

Robbie,

First, the site will get it done for you..so, don't over worry even though I know it's stressful.

Next, the DWV's piping or any 90's, 45's, etc, all have to be replaced. DWV pvc is only intended for low to no pressure applications, hence "venting, draining and waste", Nothing for pressurized applications, esp this application. You're also going to have to cut out all DWV, so plan on buying a lot of sch 40 couplers. It's not hard, just more work. Make sure you put primer and glue on both the inside of the coupling/90/45/etc and the pipe going into any one of the couplings. You are also supposed to turn/rotate newly glued pieces, but that's not going to be possible for the last pieces, so nothing wrong w a little extra.

Next, did your "contractor" provide you w any drawings, or did someone else that knows pool equipment/hydraulics? It's critical to have everything properly spec'ed out by someone that knows pool hydraulics. It's a diff animal than just home plumbing. Before you begin again, I would have a set of simple drawings, then spec out your materials. This will put you in the right direction once and for all.

Finally, don't rush this just to meet the electricians deadline. Explain to him the problem and if he's good, he'll know the drill. Also, what size pool in gallons do you have, how far is your pool from your equipment pad and is your equipment pad the same elevation as your pool? Is says you live in FL, but are there any elevation delta's from pool to equipment pad?

As stated by some other posters, there are some really great people on here that know their piping, hydraulics and pool equipment. We'll get you fixed-up soon. Just have a little patience.

good luck, tstex

 

[Robbie2883]

Robbie,

First, the site will get it done for you..so, don't over worry even though I know it's stressful.

Next, the DWV's piping or any 90's, 45's, etc, all have to be replaced. DWV pvc is only intended for low to no pressure applications, hence "venting, draining and waste", Nothing for pressurized applications, esp this application. You're also going to have to cut out all DWV, so plan on buying a lot of sch 40 couplers. It's not hard, just more work. Make sure you put primer and glue on both the inside of the coupling/90/45/etc and the pipe going into any one of the couplings. You are also supposed to turn/rotate newly glued pieces, but that's not going to be possible for the last pieces, so nothing wrong w a little extra.

Next, did your "contractor" provide you w any drawings, or did someone else that knows pool equipment/hydraulics? It's critical to have everything properly spec'ed out by someone that knows pool hydraulics. It's a diff animal than just home plumbing. Before you begin again, I would have a set of simple drawings, then spec out your materials. This will put you in the right direction once and for all.

Finally, don't rush this just to meet the electricians deadline. Explain to him the problem and if he's good, he'll know the drill. Also, what size pool in gallons do you have, how far is your pool from your equipment pad and is your equipment pad the same elevation as your pool? Is says you live in FL, but are there any elevation delta's from pool to equipment pad?

As stated by some other posters, there are some really great people on here that know their piping, hydraulics and pool equipment. We'll get you fixed-up soon. Just have a little patience.

good luck, tstex

Thanks for the help. I know this is just a hurdle to get over, just want to be done at this point. And patience isn’t my strongest attribute!! Haha

Unfortunetly there’s nothing from the contractor for specs etc. He’s been rather useless and careless.

almost all of the plumbing is new from the pool. The fountain, top returns and steps were already there. The 6 downjets, drain and 4 floor jets are all new and I was told it was schedule 40. How can I tell the difference?

the whole deck etc is all new (pavers) and the equipment sits about 50 feet or so from the pool. The pool itself is somewhere around 20k gallon.

 

[cfherrman]

Usually it will say sch 40 on it. Look at your 90's and how much pipe fits in them to glue and look at the sweeps, hardly any pipe in them, your contractor either has some quality control issues with his help or doesn't have a clue.

If I was you I would eliminate the 1.65 hp single stage pump, glue in a pvc cap on that output, and tie both suctions together to the vsd pump, turn it on and see what happens.

 

[Robbie2883]

So paramount is telling me to run the single stage for the cleaning system without running it through the filter or salt cell. that doesn't make sense to me, but i trust they know what they are saying. they do say it needs to pull from the skimmer AND the drain which it doesn't right now.

so next question, is the water feature going to suffer with the variable speed?

 

[Catanzaro]

Robbie:

The paramount system is after the filter and salt cell, not before. It is on the return side of the system. It is nothing more than fancy returns in your pool. In order for your system to be balanced, yes it has to originate from the suction side, which of course if the skimmer and main drain areas.

Here is a thread on the paramount system in a pool with some pretty detailed information.

Paramount System - Plugs, etc.

Safety cover and water levels

 

[Robbie2883]

Robbie:

The paramount system is after the filter and salt cell, not before. It is on the return side of the system. It is nothing more than fancy returns in your pool. In order for your system to be balanced, yes it has to originate from the suction side, which of course if the skimmer and main drain areas.

Here is a thread on the paramount system in a pool with some pretty detailed information.

Paramount System - Plugs, etc.

Safety cover and water levels

the way paramount is telling me to hook it up (since it's on a second pump) is isolated from the filter and salt cell. so not after, not before, but separate. and to run both pumps at the same time. kind of defeats the purpose of the variable speed i would think. :/

and that still doesn't tell me if the water feature would suffer from the vs pump. not trying to be difficult, i am jsut a very detail oriented person and want things done right this time.


that thread is talking about winterizing. am i missing something there?

 

[Catanzaro]

that thread is talking about winterizing. am i missing something there?

No, you are not missing anything. That thread is about winterizing, but shows the system and links up to websites, etc. and just a reference. I will ask Mas985 to join this thread. Thanks!

 

[mas985]

I would have suggested you use a single pump for everything but the VS may be too small to run the In-Floors. But there is a way to find out. Since the second SS pump has unions, remove the SS pump and plug the pipe with a rubber pressure plug. Run the VS pump at full speed and see if there is enough pressure at the manifold. If not, shut off the other features while the in-floor is running and see if the pressure is enough.

 

[Robbie2883]

I would have suggested you use a single pump for everything but the VS may be too small to run the In-Floors. But there is a way to find out. Since the second SS pump has unions, remove the SS pump and plug the pipe with a rubber pressure plug. Run the VS pump at full speed and see if there is enough pressure at the manifold. If not, shut off the other features while the in-floor is running and see if the pressure is enough.

just to make sure i'm on the right page here, plumb the floor cleaner into the vs and then run everything together to see if it keeps up?

 

[mas985]

The first test is without re-plumbing anything. You can do this with the way it is setup now. It just requires removing the SS pump via the unions and temporarily plugging the return line. If enough pressure is generated at the manifold, then you would be good to go to re-plumb the suction side so the VS draws from both the skimmer and the MDX.

The test is just to see if the in-floors can be run with just one pump. But because there are no check valves on each pump, you have to remove the SS pump and plug the line.

 

[Robbie2883]

So paramount finally got back to me. They are suggesting to have both the skimmer and the drain go to the leaf canister, then feed both pumps with balancing valves. from there the single stage returns to the cleaning system, and the vs returns through the filter system. seems to make sense to me. thoughts?

 

[mas985]

That would work but if the SS pump can drive the cleaning system by itself, why couldn't the VS pump do the same? It is the same size pump. Why have two pumps? Plus, with a single pump, there would be no re-circulation of small debris.

Also, I would never restrict either one of the pump's suction lines. That is a bad idea. But there is no good reason that I can see to restrict the lines anyway.

 

[Robbie2883]

That would work but if the SS pump can drive the cleaning system by itself, why couldn't the VS pump do the same? It is the same size pump. Why have two pumps? Plus, with a single pump, there would be no re-circulation of small debris.

Also, I would never restrict either one of the pump's suction lines. That is a bad idea. But there is no good reason that I can see to restrict the lines anyway.

so no valves needed since the pumps flow the same?

- - - Updated - - -

Paramount is also telling me not to switch on the single stage till the filter has been running for an hour or so.

 

[mas985]

It doesn't matter if the flow is the same or not, i would still not use a suction side valve. If you want to balance flow, the throttling valves should be always be on the return side of the pump.

Also, check valves are need to prevent flow when one of the pumps is off.

But why two pumps?