Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

big gap in color bars between 2 and 5, 'cause isn't that where most people's chlorine level is supposed to live?

Rarely. Most of the pools will have a FC above 5 but below 10.

Again - follow the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]. You will always use TARGET as your base. Not the minimum. So with a SWCG with a CYA of 80 your FC should be at 6 or higher when you test it at the lowest point of the day (normally in the morning before the SWCG turns on).

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Roger that. I was going to use a target of 5 for now, because I don't add salt for another few weeks, so I'm using targets for a fresh-water pool. Make sense?

Speaking of which, I was going to broach this at some point to the group, but maybe in a different forum (not sure yet the protocol here for that). It's November. Paso Robles can have warm days year round, but has plenty of cold ones, too. I think I know that my SWCG will be compromised by my pool water's temp in the coming months, but I don't have last year's temp data so I'm not sure by how much. So I was wondering: should I stick with a non-SWCG pool through the winter, or turn on the SWCG after the requisite 30 days? If that thing is struggling to maintain the FC levels, I was thinking that would make my learning curve even steeper: trying to figure out the optimum setting for the SWCG while having to supplement with liquid during cold spells, etc. What would you all do?

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

I would suspect your pool water temperature will reach 60F sooner rather than later. That is typically when a SWCG will not generate chlorine anymore. So yes, stay as a "non-SWCG' pool until spring. You do not need to add the salt either until then. You might actually get some rain that will require you to drain some water this winter (shock, I know, rain in California - according to the govt it will never happen again).

FC at 5 is great with a CYA of 30.

Your Easytouch/Intelliflo have freeze protection. 40F I believe. So you should be fine there too.

This is a little tool for the future -- SWG Run Time Calculator

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

OK, great, that's one less thing I have to worry about for a while. Pool temp is already bobbing around 60 and below. I can concentrate on dialing in the other chems and learning my water. Of course, that'll change with the addition of salt, but I'll be better ready for that after a few months of practice with Pool Math and the K-2006.

Yes, already set up for freeze protection, and my ScreenLogic history will tell me when that kicks in, so I can make sure it works.

There are a lot of advantages in replastering in late fall. The bummer is... I can't get in my pool to enjoy it, along with my new, improved water chem!

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Just want to double check... This morning's K-2006 test:

pH = 7.6
FC = 2.5
TA = 130

TA:
I've read not to put more than 20oz of MA in at a time. That's what I've been doing, and slowly lowering TA, using the "MA/aerating" method. With a pH of 7.6, I'm going to add 20oz of MA. That shouldn't drop my pH lower than about 7.3. And then I'll aerate the pH back up for the next dose.

Chlorine:
With FC 2.5 and target of 5, I'm using Pool Math to determine how much chlorine I need. I have Lowes' KemTex Chlorinating Liquid which reads 10% Sodium Hypochlorite. Do I put "10" into Pool Math? I get "Add 39 oz of 10 trade % bleach. Jug size 128 oz."

What does "trade" mean?

So I just add 39 fluid ounces of my KemTek, right?

At least 15 minutes between acid and chlorine... (I'll probably go an hour or so, or until someone weights in.)

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

I would suggest letting your pH rise to 8 then dropping it to 7.2 if you wish to lower TA. But since this is new plaster, if the plastering company told you something different, follow that.

Trade is another way to report %. My PoolMath says 'weight' on my chlorine %.

You do put 10 as your chlorine %.

FYI -- chlorine from Lowes and Home Depot tend to be old, and stored outside. Both degrade the chlorine pretty quickly. Check the date on the box or bottle. Should be a string of numbers that is 17XXX; the XXX is the day of the year it was bottled. If older than 60 days, not so good.

A way to check is to add what you need per PoolMath, then check your FC about an hour later with your pump running. If the FC does not match closely with what PoolMath said it should be, either the chlorine is not as strong as you think or your pool volume is incorrect.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Great tips, thank you.

I would suggest letting your pH rise to 8 then dropping it to 7.2 if you wish to lower TA. But since this is new plaster, if the plastering company told you something different, follow that.

They are most concerned with it getting too low. My concern is the amount I'd need to add to go from 8 to 7.2. That'd take considerably more than 20 oz. Do I need to worry about that? As long as it's coming down (and it has been), I may play it safe and add smaller doses at a time, unless you think that that's a losing battle. It is taking a while.

Question: on the K-2006, I have had it up to 8.0, color-wise. If my pool shot up higher than that, by a little or a lot, would I get a darker color, so I'd know? Or does it max out at the color of 8.0 and not give you any idea of how much higher it is?

Trade is another way to report %. My PoolMath says 'weight' on my chlorine %.

Somewhere between 6 and 10 the interface inserts the word "trade" for "weight." A function of the underlying code. It's not clear to a novice what either means.

You do put 10 as your chlorine %.

Great, thanks. Easy!

FYI -- chlorine from Lowes and Home Depot tend to be old, and stored outside. Both degrade the chlorine pretty quickly. Check the date on the box or bottle. Should be a string of numbers that is 17XXX; the XXX is the day of the year it was bottled. If older than 60 days, not so good.

My KemTex box reads "17 256 1104 C." Bummer, that's 64 days old. Nice of them to disguise the expiration date like that. My Lowes stores it inside, but I'll definitely watch that date going forward. Great tip!

A way to check is to add what you need per PoolMath, then check your FC about an hour later with your pump running. If the FC does not match closely with what PoolMath said it should be, either the chlorine is not as strong as you think or your pool volume is incorrect.

I happened to be remodeling the plumbing of a four-plex right around the time the pool was emptied the first time (for the fateful acid wash). I was able to use one of the as-yet-uninstalled water meters from the plumbing job to fill the pool. That's how I got 12,300! Now the new pebble might have altered the volume a bit, as can the fill level, but I'm confident I'm pretty close.

At some point in the future, I'm hoping, I'll figure out my "FC to K-2006" ratio and be able to do the math on the fly, as in "need x ounces to raise FC 0.5." Do you think it's a direct linear ratio like that, or is there more math to it? Do the other chem numbers in Pool Math affect the chlorine math?

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Question: on the K-2006, I have had it up to 8.0, color-wise. If my pool shot up higher than that, by a little or a lot, would I get a darker color, so I'd know? Or does it max out at the color of 8.0 and not give you any idea of how much higher it is?

The color will be darker, but not relative to any number. So IF you see a darker color than 8, always use 8 in PoolMath as NOW so that you do not overshoot on the low side.

Do you think it's a direct linear ratio like that, or is there more math to it? Do the other chem numbers in Pool Math affect the chlorine math?

For the chlorine - nothing else is integral in calculating the amount needed. That is not true with pH and TA and acid needed - they are intertwined.

That'd take considerably more than 20 oz. Do I need to worry about that?

Why the fixation on a certain amount of MA? You need what you need to treat the pool. That might be 8 oz, or 32 oz. It is what it is.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Why the fixation on a certain amount of MA? You need what you need to treat the pool. That might be 8 oz, or 32 oz. It is what it is.

Maybe I've been going about it wrong. Several sources (not here) warned against adding more than 20oz of MA at a time. That's where that came from. And based on what I've been doing, and measuring the best I could, I've never needed to add less, so I've just kept dosing that amount.

I think I understand the MA/aerating method: drop to 7.2 with MA, aerate to 8, repeat as necessary until target TA is reached. But that would violate the 20oz rule. I was looking here for confirmation about that rule, or the debunking of it. (And it sounds like you're debunking it.)

Up until a day or so ago, I had no way to accurately determine what my pH was doing, or what my TA was doing for that matter. Or what any amount of acid would do to either. I figured 20oz at a time wouldn't cause too much trouble, as long as I didn't let either ph or TA get too low or too high, but I have grazed both 7.0 and 8.0. So I've been trying to make incremental corrections to TA so that I don't lose control of the pH.

Another concern: I've been asking sources (here, too) if new plaster/pebble tends to push either pH or TA up, and if so, what to expect. I haven't gotten a definitive answer to that, so that was another variable that was making me nervous about moving pH around. In other words, how much of what I'm doing is moving the pH and TA, vs how much the curing process is contributing. I have no math for that.

The other thing I'm up against was not knowing exactly what the aerating was doing. I have six bubble jets, and they run all day and night. I didn't know if that could potentially send pH through the roof while I was asleep. So I was dosing 20oz often, every four hours or so, and right before I went to sleep, to keep the pH from ever getting too high. And that's why I was asking about the 8.0 pH color. I didn't want to aerate past 8.0 and not know it... Is that even possible?

Plus, since I've converted all three of my returns into bubblers, and had the drains removed as part of my remodel, I've started to worry about circulation, in terms of ppm accuracy, acid sitting on the pebble floor, etc., etc.

Over think much? Yep, that's my burden (and now yours since you've gotten sucked into my vortex! Sorry 'bout that.)...

I'm still floundering around here, really. I figured if I go slow, and if it goes wrong, then I likely wouldn't be too far off the chart.

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Your new plaster will drive pH up, not TA. So maintaining a pH between 7.2 and 7.8 is good.

Again- I do not think I would be doing what you are in pushing the TA down right now as you are fighting pH rise from new plaster. One thing at a time. The TA is not that big a deal right now with cold water etc not pushing your CSI into the positive range. So I would suggest shutting down the aerators and just monitor pH and FC for awhile and see how it balances.

Are you considering a robot? You said you no longer have a main drain? A robot really helps keep things mixed up.

Just be sure you add any chemicals (acid, chlorine) in a pencil size stream rate into the pool water at a return when the pump is running. Then for security, take your brush and make a few swipes around the pool, including the bottom of the deep end, to be sure it is mixed.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Thank you. Will do (all). I'll keep you posted.

By robot to you mean a pool sweep/vacuum? I have one of those (a Pentair Kreepy Krauly Rebel Pool Cleaner) and it's been running for 2 hours a day since about Day 3.

The original main drains were plumbed to the skimmer, not the pad. The skimmer had no diverter for them when I bought the house. I suspect they've never had water running through them. The pool has always had an automated vacuum sweep. I converted the previous pressure side vacuum to a suction side, which was a consideration in deleting the drains during the remodel. I was told that the vacuum would do as good or better a job at moving water around than the main drains (which actually never moved water around anyway). Though at 2 hours a day I have to wonder about that.

I have the eyeballs off the returns just now, as per plaster guys' guidelines. Maybe I'll take off the bubblers and put on the eyeballs and get the pool spinning around for circulation, and then concentrate on the ph and FC, as you advise. That would certainly make things easier on me, and I can get back to the rest of my life! (And you yours!)

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

So you have a suction side pool vac. Might add that to your signature.

Many on the forum love their robots. Less electric (no need to run the pump to make them work) and clean much better.

The suction side pool vac if run daily is moving your water around greatly. If it runs during the time you add chemicals there is no concern of chemicals not mixing properly.

Not sure why the plaster guys would not want eyeballs in the returns? Never heard that one before. But I would suspect you can put them in now.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

So you have a suction side pool vac. Might add that to your signature.

Many on the forum love their robots. Less electric (no need to run the pump to make them work) and clean much better.

The suction side pool vac if run daily is moving your water around greatly. If it runs during the time you add chemicals there is no concern of chemicals not mixing properly.

Not sure why the plaster guys would not want eyeballs in the returns? Never heard that one before. But I would suspect you can put them in now.

Take care.

I looked at the robots but didn't like the idea of the cord, and having to put them in and out of the pool. I did like the remote control though. That would be cool to drive it around to snag up a leaf or two!! I could chase my kids around with it!

I could get into the habit of running the vac for a while after each chem addition. Good idea.

I probably misinterpreted the eyeball thing. It's probably only for the fill day. When I bought the house the pool had a very nasty line from the vacuum port down to the deep end. I always thought is was a crack, or a patched crack. I was later told that it was a permanent stain caused by water weeping out of the port during the original fill. Must have been heartache for the original owners. I know how much it bugged me. Makes my CYA stain look like nothing. Apparently new plaster is super susceptible to streaking if the water enters the pool during the fill from anywhere but from the bottom up, in one, fast, continuous fill. I suppose the eyeballs could cause some problems, maybe trap some water, release it later, something like that. But I had all my ports capped off, at my insistence, to avoid the issue this time around. Even still, one of the ports weeped a little. But they tightened it just before the acid wash, which blasted off the residue. So my fill went well.

Point is... time for the eyeballs.

Of course, nobody explained any of that to me. This reinforces my dilemma. I kinda feel that both the plaster co and my now-fired service co could have done more for me regarding the start up. Plaster co unceremoniously dumped the start up into the service co's lap, who bailed after the first day (couple hours worth). The rest has been left to me, a completely novice pool owner, to take up. I guess $9500 (combined charges from the two companies) doesn't buy what it used to. (Man am I sounding old!!)

OK, I'm just whining. The sliver lining is: it's forced me to learn the stuff I should have already known, and I'll be way better off for it (I already am)...

 

[cfherrman]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Properly handled and mixed MA is no sweat to add huge doses. The 20 oz thing was probably a pool store thing for people who don't know better and don't want too. The more you handle the more fumes you get, some wear rubber gloves and masks, I'm just tough( or dumb). Personally I have done 32 oz of 36% HCL. The bigger doses the bigger chance you can mess up by over shooting your target pH and if you add it too fast it can settle at the bottom of your pool. As mentioned, a trickle of a stream at a return to mix it, brush after as you have new plaster. You do need to add 1/2 as much as pool math says until you get the hang of it and you also find out if your pool gallons is correct, or if your testing is off. This form of pool care is so easy and also incredibly cheap and as a triple thread, the cleanest, clearest water you will find. So don't fret if you gave trouble, everybody gets there with help from here. Welcome to the pool snob life.

I think you should do a bleach pool for now, it's super easy and in this season requires less bleach, so hardly any money. Fire up the salt and swg later, swg do have a finite amount of clorine they can produce over their life, so don't over run it when your new.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Properly handled and mixed MA is no sweat to add huge doses. The 20 oz thing was probably a pool store thing for people who don't know better and don't want too. The more you handle the more fumes you get, some wear rubber gloves and masks, I'm just tough( or dumb). Personally I have done 32 oz of 36% HCL. The bigger doses the bigger chance you can mess up by over shooting your target pH and if you add it too fast it can settle at the bottom of your pool. As mentioned, a trickle of a stream at a return to mix it, brush after as you have new plaster. You do need to add 1/2 as much as pool math says until you get the hang of it and you also find out if your pool gallons is correct, or if your testing is off. This form of pool care is so easy and also incredibly cheap and as a triple thread, the cleanest, clearest water you will find. So don't fret if you gave trouble, everybody gets there with help from here. Welcome to the pool snob life.

I think you should do a bleach pool for now, it's super easy and in this season requires less bleach, so hardly any money. Fire up the salt and swg later, swg do have a finite amount of clorine they can produce over their life, so don't over run it when your new.

I did get the "20 oz thing" from a pool store, but also saw it somewhere else, so that engrained it. I'll take small bites at this, as you suggest ("1/2 as much") while I build up skills and confidence.

As each new concept clicks, it is starting to feel "so easy." I'm kicking myself for not taking this on sooner. I think the damage to my pool was done even before I bought the house. Previous owners were using the pool guy I inherited, who just wasn't doing the work. He finished the plaster off with his incompetent acid wash, but I now believe he set the stage from day 1 with his inadequate pool care. So a re-plaster was in my near future any way. But now I'm determined to set the world record for pebble longevity! I shouldn't have to resurface again in my lifetime.

I'm feelin' sort of snobby, yah! Better water, cheaper maintenance costs. What's not to love!?!

I concur with you and Marty, bleach pool for now. Sounds simpler for me at this stage of my learning curve, and it'll be good for me to get that down before I dive into the SWCG (which wouldn't really be working right now any way).

Curious: do most SWCG owners shut it down in the winter, and go bleach, or just let it limp along and supplement with bleach?

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Should I be testing Borate? And if so, how best to do so?

I'm now looking at LSI and CSI. I need a Borate number of CSI, right?

 

[cfherrman]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You have to add borates, or over the life of your water add a significant amount of, I think soda ash, to build any borates, so enter zero.

I mostly see borates here to help fix problems and less for improving water feel, also can make water toxic to pets.

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You have not added Borates so no need to test for them.

Use CSI not LSI. More accurate for calcium scaling.

Except Florida and S Texas and warmer climates worldwide most folks shut down their SWCG in the winter. Of course in colder climates, they close the pool and do not have to maintain at all during the winter.

Take care.

 

[Dirk]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

You have not added Borates so no need to test for them.

Use CSI not LSI. More accurate for calcium scaling.

Except Florida and S Texas and warmer climates worldwide most folks shut down their SWCG in the winter. Of course in colder climates, they close the pool and do not have to maintain at all during the winter.

Roger on the Borates. (One less thing to think about and do. Yay!)
Roger on the CSI. Very handy having that built in to Pool Math. I am seeing how sensitive it is to pH. Noted!
My current strategy, based on the consensus here: no SWCG in the winter. I don't shut my pool down, so I'll be maintaining it year-round.

Did CH test today (along with the others). Raised some questions (numbered below), which actually came to me with TA, too. And excuse me if this is covered in Pool School, I've only just begun getting through that:

FC test is pretty easy. I titrate until I see no yellow at all.
pH test is easy, too. The K-2006 color bars work well with my eyeballs!

1.
But the TA is a little more challenging. I see the color shift from green to red, but it does so in such a way that I'm not clear on when to stop. It sort of goes clear, then pink. Subsequent drops turn the pink darker. Are you all stopping when green disappears and you first see any pink hue, or do you continue until you can call it "red." And how does one know, exactly, what "red" looks like?

2.
Same for CH. Red turns to purple and then eventually to blue. But that calculates out to about a span of 100 or so. Do I stop when it first stops looking "red" or when it stops looking "purple." Again, how does one know, exactly, what "blue" looks like? So I may be at CH250, or as high as CH350!

3.
And while the FC test has been more obvious, I did have some doubts about the powder. Depending on how I scoop/shake/tap/etc. the amount dispensed from the dipper seems slightly more ambiguous than a drop from a bottle (which feels more accurate). How critical is the amount of powder, and how are you all measuring that out? Any tricks?

I'm determined to keep my levels as close to optimum as possible, given my available skill set and bandwidth to do so. Like I've intimated in my posts, I want my pebble to look like it does now for the rest of my days, if possible. I'm getting a good CSI number, which raised another question:

4.
In your collective experience, would you say that if one could maintain a near-zero CSI, that one would never see calcium deposits on any pool surface, especially at the waterline on the border tile? Or is that unrealistic, and some calcium streaks and spots are inevitable? Could you maintain your water chem alone to completely eliminate calcium deposits, or is some manual scrubbing inevitable?

I believe it was calcium deposits that was the main thing that was compromising my pool's looks. Big whitish streaks on the plaster, and a nasty ring around the border tile. Now that my pool is new, have I seen the last of both if I religiously adhere to TFP methods? That alone would be great motivation for me to do so.

 

[mknauss]

Re: Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

1. You add reagent until the color no longer changes, then subtract the last drop.

2. Same as 1.

3. There should be a fleck or two of undissolved powder in the sample. Otherwise use a bit more powder. You said "I titrate until I see no yellow at all". Mine is pink. I have the TF100 but I think those tests are the same.

4. You will still get 'some' calcium deposits on your water line tile. Just that fact that the water wicks up the grout lines and evaporates will create some deposits. I use a scrubby around the water line (when the pool is warm enough to be in ) to knock off the minor calcium deposit. You should never get any calcium deposits below the water line as long as you maintain your CSI appropriately.

Take care.