Where do you even start? Post Harvey flood waters

[tstex]

Hello to all,

Was helping to demo [remove sheet-rock, cabinets floors,etc] a house of a hurricane post-flood victim. The problem is that the USACE's released reservoir/dam waters for 14-18 days that keep homes in 3-8 ft of water after hurricane left. This was a major bayou and a waste treatment plant was also flooded and h-waste was continuously released into the waters too, to the turn of 40-50PPM higher than the highest end of the bad side [per Baylor College of Med's Cell Bio Dept]

The house I worked on yesterday also had a pool. The couple was in their early 80's. The pool was obviously disgusting and also had many diff sizes of small fish [6" to 1/2"]. The water was more brown than green and did not smell very good at all. I volunteered that when they were ready, I would use some TFP techniques w my TF-100. but where do you start? The pump and all equipment had been under water for 14days. the pump would start and actually run, but the homeowner said it was much louder than normal...prob bad or near bad bearings.

Considering e-coli and other things from the waste treatment plant, how does one even start something like this? I felt really sorry for them bc everything they owned was ruined and tossed. The only good thing about the fish is they were eating the mosquito larvae that you could see swimming at the top. Over 1,400 homes like this along the bayou where the release waters from the reservoirs went 1/3 mile out of banks...the losses are incalculable at this time. I felt guilt coming home to a sparkling TF-pool

 

[tstex]

Both of these are pictures of what the homes sustained from either 10-18 days continuously - many homes you could not access unless by boat. St signs are 6-7 ft tall min

 

[triptyx]

Not an expert on this by any means.

My guess is you'd need to empty the pool out completely and pressure wash it, shovel out the "stuff", pressure wash it, and treat it for staining - likely there is a foot or more of mud/sludge/waste at the bottom, and that's going to stain the heck out of the plaster (assuming it's plaster based). If plaster based, it'll be a while before you can do that given water table concerns. Finally, if it has main drains, avoid running the pump for now - you don't want to pull all that mess into the pump/filter.

Early on, I might try to use a garbage pump to suck out as much of the mess on the bottom as possible. In the end, a disaster recovery firm funded by their insurance would be the best first step (hopefully they had insurance).

 

[Swampwoman]

I would be exceptionally wary of emptying ANY pools in or around Houston due to the water table pressure right now. But raw sewage overflow potential is to my mind an issue.

Though we rarely discuss this option on TFP because it is generally not recommended, there is a reason I'm going to mention it here: After netting out live or large debris as much as possible, I would consider Alum Floc, to remove any possible cryptosporidium contamination which slam levels can't reliably touch...and would help clarify top/upper levels of water - using a trash pump ONLY to get the resultant floc plus already existing sludge off the floor. With sheet method or adequate water supply to keep up the water level...tarp method if desired, again to avoid the pool structure rising with water table.

Crypto is a parasitic cyst that can be 4-6 microns in size. A DE filter has a better chance of filtering it out. A sand filter doesn't stand a chance.

After this treatment, then I'd perform a slam.

 

[mknauss]

The only caveat to draining the pool is the water table is no doubt still very high, and may always be high in that area of Houston. So draining could result in 'popping' the pool.

Using a trash pump to clean out the mud and solids is a good idea. Adding fresh water at the same time will be necessary to keep the pool somewhat full. I would suggest adding liquid chlorine to the pool at the start to kill as much of the bacteria as possible. Not sure size of pool but I would assume 30 ppm FC to add. Could not hurt.

The surface equipment will be a repair/replace issue.

Not sure if flood insurance covers pools.. I would assume they had flood insurance there however many in the Houston area were not required to have flood insurance as the 'flood control' measures were to protect them, and they did not.

 

[SpringPool]

If the pump on the equipment is going to be replaced and there is a valve to use the skimmer only you could vacuum off the bottom using the skimmer but I would build a filter on the hose like this big blue housing Pentek 150236 1-1/2" Big Blue 20" Filter Housing Sale $58.95 and a larger (20 micron) filter to grab the big stuff before it gets to the pump.

First however i would add the bleach & floc and then use a leaf net and and get as much solids out that way

 

[tstex]

Thanks guys...I know the first poster was trying to help, but there's no way anyone should reduce the pool water level, this preventing the pool gunite from popping/floating.

Whatever is added to the pool, if it kills the fish, I hope too it will kill the mos larvae too. Problem is w those kind of gunk levels, it's going to revert back quickly to a FC = 0 and allow mosquitoes to proliferate again if they do not continue to add bleach. I am not too sure how much the pool is a priority when your house is basically all down to studs. The homes in these areas range from 500-600K to million plus for larger ones, w a lot of pools...they are all in this condition. Right now all the bleach is off the shelves and I have to drive 50 miles to next town to get bleach...just bought 12 gals last weekend...

I'll stop by this weekend and ask them when and what they would like to do and determine their priorities. I think I am also going to post this info on a neighborhood web-page for pool owners to give them an initial plan.

THanks again to all for your help, tstex

 

[espejo]

Keep the faith. I live in Kingwood Texas and had almost 3 feet of water in my home. Surprisingly, my pool pump and booster pump survived. My heater had to be replaced. My pool was dark brown, with small fish, frogs and one small turtle. I began the TFP technique again and daily brushed multiple times to filter out the bad stuff. I had to swap filters every day and now I can do it less than 5 minutes. I also added bleach got my salt level up and have been running my pump 24 hours. I also called Mike with Thunderbird Pools who brought a vacuum and removed most of the mud that settled on the bottom. The water is clear and I should have my replacement test kit today so I can measure the numbers. I know I have some staining on the bottom but I'm keeping the FC high and hope they will fade in a few weeks. I will also schedule a service to help me with removing the stains. Do not drain the pool, the last thing you want is to lift the pool due to the high water table. Here's a picture of my pool from last weekend.

On other good news, the rebuild began yesterday. Insulation and drywall is already up in 2 rooms.

 

[SpringPool]

Depending on where in Houston you are you could call Pinch a Penny. Suncoast Gold Liquid Chlorine Shock, 2.5 Gal.

They sell chlorine in Bulk 2.5 gal containers but maybe a 55 gal drum could be delivered to you.

 

[triptyx]

Thanks guys...I know the first poster was trying to help, but there's no way anyone should reduce the pool water level, this preventing the pool gunite from popping/floating.

Whatever is added to the pool, if it kills the fish, I hope too it will kill the mos larvae too. Problem is w those kind of gunk levels, it's going to revert back quickly to a FC = 0 and allow mosquitoes to proliferate again if they do not continue to add bleach. I am not too sure how much the pool is a priority when your house is basically all down to studs. The homes in these areas range from 500-600K to million plus for larger ones, w a lot of pools...they are all in this condition. Right now all the bleach is off the shelves and I have to drive 50 miles to next town to get bleach...just bought 12 gals last weekend...

I'll stop by this weekend and ask them when and what they would like to do and determine their priorities. I think I am also going to post this info on a neighborhood web-page for pool owners to give them an initial plan.

THanks again to all for your help, tstex

hehe, the first poster specifically said it will be a while before you drain due to water table issues.

Good luck with the pool!

 

[tstex]

hehe, the first poster specifically said it will be a while before you drain due to water table issues.

Good luck with the pool!

Tri - you are correct and apology sent...after reading all the other posts re "don't drain, etc", guess I fell to the "group think" thing...

I'm still waiting on the couple to decide what they want to do and when...thanks for letting me know re correction - tstex

 

[tstex]

Keep the faith. I live in Kingwood Texas and had almost 3 feet of water in my home. Surprisingly, my pool pump and booster pump survived. My heater had to be replaced. My pool was dark brown, with small fish, frogs and one small turtle. I began the TFP technique again and daily brushed multiple times to filter out the bad stuff. I had to swap filters every day and now I can do it less than 5 minutes. I also added bleach got my salt level up and have been running my pump 24 hours. I also called Mike with Thunderbird Pools who brought a vacuum and removed most of the mud that settled on the bottom. The water is clear and I should have my replacement test kit today so I can measure the numbers. I know I have some staining on the bottom but I'm keeping the FC high and hope they will fade in a few weeks. I will also schedule a service to help me with removing the stains. Do not drain the pool, the last thing you want is to lift the pool due to the high water table. Here's a picture of my pool from last weekend. View attachment 69272

On other good news, the rebuild began yesterday. Insulation and drywall is already up in 2 rooms.

Espejo - nice job neighbor !!!! you made a nice comeback.

How long was your place flooded? These people had their pool under for over 2 weeks but not 3 weeks...it also contained sewage from waste treatment plant that was submerged in the release waters and then just continued to spill into the overflow waters...this is the most dangerous aspect of the remediation process...when this stuff dried, it became airborne too so you could inhale it...very nasty.

good luck, thanks

 

[Swampwoman]

Tstext, over in the deep end I am doing an experiment using Alum floc to remove crazy high orthophosphates from sequestrant use and decay. As a result, I've been reading a lot of water quality industry research on flocculents and their use in purifying and recovering sewage effluent and reducing bio loads. If you decide to work on recovery, please feel free to reach out to me for practical reference.

The way in which flocculent reduces bacteria and viruses is by reducing the available surface of suspended materials in turbid water. Alum is positively charged and complexes with the negatively charged matter. That's how it "captures" small micron but chlorine-resistant things like crypto. In treatment plants, the process for purification is to first floc, then filter and sanitize (eg chlorinate if for drinking water) or skim and filter to discharge. Note that while floc reduces volume and risk of contaminants (especially crypto) it is NOT a sanitizer and does not replace chlorine...but indirectly makes chlorine more effective in that it reduces the capacity of the water to host parasites, bacteria, etc. Chlorine, when available, is always the first line of defense. But when scarce and in this situation, floccing could help recovery time and dramatically reduce the chlorine needed, plus reduce risk (though care should be taken handling sludge removal.)

The best way to determine an effective rate of application is a jar test, or in case of a pool, a 5 gallon bucket test. Alum will drop the ph a bit, but I've read papers that suggest its efficacy is greatly increased if ph is 6.5 to 7 so starting with lower ph and higher temp water (with washing soda ready to increase ph) will increase chance of successful formation. An appropriate dose in the Houston scenario would most likely be 12 lbs alum per 10,000 gallons (I am doing about 8 lbs per 10k gallons from my test on phosphate removal.) the cheapest place to buy technical grade alum as a consumer right now is on Amazon, where there's a seller charging a little over $1 a pound.

(Note: My current po4 experiment is not any indication that much of pool store baloney about po4 is true or germane...it isn't, at least in the way presented by the pool industry, as i remain algae free even in mega high concentrations using TFP. But in my relatively rare circumstances with po4 at 25,000 ppb I am experiencing phosphate scale in my heater...hence the experiment where few need to bother.)

Hope that helps give you some fodder for thought in helping your Houston peeps expedite recovery.

 

[Swampwoman]

PS - you'll notice I'm mentioning crypto resistance a lot considering the sewage overflow...just to give you an idea of CDC reccs for commercial pool pros, here's an excerpt describing shock/slam values to kill crypto in the event the homeowners or practicality dictates a chlorine-only cleanup approach. The key would be ensuring CYA is 15 ppm or less...my concern would be this rate of FC on a liner, but public pools are rarely liner types:

Step 3: Hyperchlorinate.2 Chlorine stabilizer slows the rate at which free chlorine inactivates or kills Crypto, and the more stabilizer there is in the water the longer it takes to kill Crypto.
If the cyanuric acid concentration is 1–15 parts per million (ppm)3, using unstabilized chlorine.
• Raise the free chlorine concentration to 20 ppm4 and maintain it for 28 hours or
• Raise the free chlorine concentration to 30 ppm4 and maintain it for 18 hours or
• Raise the free chlorine concentration to 40 ppm4 and maintain it for 8.5 hours
If the cyanuric acid concentration is more than 15 ppm, lower the concentration to 1–15 ppm by draining partially and adding fresh water without chlorine stabilizer before attempting to hyperchlorinate

 

[espejo]

The pool is back post Hurricane Harvey. It took a little time but all stains have been removed. The water was so high the 2 blue pots in the foreground were submerged. We will work on replacing the flowers next weekend.

 

[Swampwoman]

Good job!

 

[tstex]

Swampwoman Stated: "Tstext, over in the deep end I am doing an experiment using Alum floc to remove crazy high orthophosphates from sequestrant use and decay. As a result, I've been reading a lot of water quality industry research on flocculents and their use in purifying and recovering sewage effluent and reducing bio loads. If you decide to work on recovery, please feel free to reach out to me for practical reference."

Thank you very much - I will be reaching out to you...there are a lot of folks that don't know where to start or if they do, are highly taken advantage of due to scammers and low number of qualified people being spread thin...Thank you very much - tstex

 

[Swampwoman]

TSTEX, I just finished up my Alum floc experiment to remove spent sequestrant so feel free to reach out.

When I saw your post last night, hubby and I were discussing the application process in your settings.

Two things that help make sure it works right and drops, in our experience, were to adjust ph to about 7 (It will take it down more so you need to have washing soda on hand) and ensuring it has circulated well on recirculate setting of filter for 2 hours.

So, to treat with the best chance of success, ideally you would:

1. Confirm the pool has capability to vac to waste or have trash pump available

2. Confirm pump operation/electrical ok for circulation period. If there is large debris or clogging that contraindicates using the pump on recirculate, you'd want at least a submersible pump working as "circulation" in the pool (eg fed back into the pool) for a few hours. This would also allow you to add MA to lower ph adequately.

One aspect I was concerned about was what to do if floc didn't "drop" - which is a common complaint. But since charge forms and gathers material (eg crypto) regardless, Hubby pointed out that worst case, you'd need to perform sheet method whereby you'd cover pool with tarp, adding water on top while trash-pumping out the bottom layer of water, which is pretty much what you'd need to do anyway without floc. The alum would just give a better chance of collecting undesirables. So if you try the treatment, be prepared with this backup plan.

In my own bucket tests, my best floc formation and drop was at a ph of 6.9. My other test bucket with higher ph in which I'd simulated shock level did not drop. This concords with what I've read in water quality treatment literature...optimum formation occurs at lower ph, eg 6.5-7.0. In my pool at 20 lbs application rate for 24k gallons, the treatment dropped ph by .4 -.5 so the treatment parameter of effective floccing was about right.

Alum can be purchased in 50 lb bags - eg here: ALUMINUM SULFATE
For about $35.

On Amazon, its now going for about $2 a pound in smaller quantities. Technical grade worked fine for me. Note that on Amazon, some sellers are selling 50 lb bags for $100 or more...so its worth looking around. This is a popular pond treatment/clarifier so those types of resellers where people buy in bulk might be a good source.

In my experiment, the blanket formed/dropped pretty quickly in warm water within the first 12 hours, but continued to drop throughout the next 24 hours. Waiting is worthwhile to get the lionshare out in a single vac to waste...I did 2 by overfilling the pool a bit first time and getting 90% of it, then a quick second vac the next day to get bits that settled into crevices/along floor-wall corners.

Feel free to pm me with any questions.

 

[tstex]

Thank you very much - very useful information - tstex