New Pool Owner - Want to Install SWG - Anode Question

[kchinger]

Hello,

My main question is really about sacrificial anodes. My new pool (that I don't own for another week, when we close on the house) is in great condition right now, really clean, looks good, the pool inspector said it was very well maintained. It has a natural gas heater that I'm worried about protecting when I hopefully switch it over to SWG.

We really want to do SWG, mainly for the smell/irritated eyes/hair issues and the better feel that I've heard about. I've read conflicting information about the need for a sacrificial anode.

The pool doesn't have any ladders or anything, the only metal in the pool that I see is one chrome trim piece around the one light in the deep end. The main thing is the heater. Do I need a zinc anode? If so, should I get one of the T ones and plumb it in? Where do I plumb it? I'm pretty sure the SWG goes after the heater, right before the return, but I think the anode should go right before the heater, right? Does it matter?

FWIW, I'm leaning towards the Hayward AQR15 SWG, seems to get good reviews.

Also, if I use SWG, do I need a full test kit still? I know I need to balance the pH still by adding Muriatic Acid I think, so I need pH strips, and I need salt test strips, and then I guess chlorine test? Does that include FC and CYA?

I've tried to read a good bit, but I haven't really found a good primer on pool chemistry specifically for salt water pools, is there one around I'm missing?

Thanks.

 

[Jimrahbe]

K,

Welcome to TFP... A Great resource for all your Salty Questions...

I know nothing about your anode question... I think it is a regional thing, as no one down here uses them..

Your heater does not care if you use saltwater... heater damage is most often caused by pH issues, not chlorine from a SWCG.

I think saltwater pools are the only way to go, but just to make sure we are all on the same page. There is really no difference between a TFP saltwater pool and a TFP chlorine pool as far as smell, eye irritation, and hair issues. With Non-SWCG pools you have to manually add chlorine.. With a saltwater pool the Saltwater Chlorine Generator just makes the chlorine using electricity and the salt in the pool water. It just does not put it in a bottle with a Clorox label.

While a saltwater pool is the easiest to maintain, you still have to test for the same key chemical values. So yes, you still need an accurate test kit. Either the TF-100 (the one I have) or the Taylor K-2006C (and yes the 'C' is important).

We always recommend a SWCG that is at least 2 x the size of your pool. In a 30K pool an AQR15, which is only rated for 40K pool, would have a tough time keeping up with the chlorine demand down here. It might be ok where you are, but I would be looking for a model rated at 60K.. The reason for this is that all cells are rated when running at 100%, 24/7. Something you really don't want to do unless you have a variable speed pump.

Thanks for posting and good luck with your new pool,

Jim R.

 

[Roy Lyon]

There's lots of good stuff in pool school thats where I started and then play around with pool math.

 

[LFrankow]

The right test kit will help you avoid;
Smell = low FC levels
Irritated eyes = Ph levels are off
Helmet head hair = FC is wrong probably too high
Sacrificial anode, tried it didn't seem to make a difference and from what I have read normally not needed.
Guide Pool School - Water Balance for SWGs
As Jim stated the t-15 is a bit small for your pool, the Pentair IC-60 gets as good of reviews as the Haywards.
Most heater manufacturers recommend a check valve between the heater and the swg, just to prevent the swg from pushing undiluted chlorine into the heater.

 

[kchinger]

Thanks for the responses. Hadn't thought about a check valve there, not a bad idea. Maybe I'll find out who made the heater and see what their recommendations are for the anode or not.

And yeah, I was originally thinking it was 20k gallons based on the pool guys eyeball estimate, but I just used Google maps to measure it and got 40x20 and it's 3 and 6 feet I think. So maybe I need to look for a bigger generator.

Do you wire the generator on the same timer as the pump I assume? So put a junction box after the timer and run a new branch circuit to the swg? I assume you wouldn't want the generator running without the pump.

 

[mknauss]

You are right on the wiring. You want either to wire as you state or have a separate timer for the SWCG. The SWCG has a flow switch but that is a secondary protection.

The check valve and heater thing is a bit of myth. A SWCG does not create very highly chlorinated water. It is few ppm, at most, above your pool water. The issue with putting a check valve there is it creates additional head loss for the pump, and disrupts the water flow into the SWCG and thus you may have to run your pump at a higher flowrate to activate the flow switch.

I do not have a check valve. Pentair shows it in their manual, but when you call them they say not necessary. Just an old view that has been debunked with science.

Take care.

 

[kchinger]

So the pool is actually 26k gallons according to some sharpie inside the timer. Will the 40k gallon aqr15 be enough in that case? The pool isn't in full sun all day, there are a number of evergreens and stuff providing partial shade. I don't love the install or price or the accuracy of the salt estimate on the pentair, so I'd prefer to stay with the other, but I don't want to go too small.

Looks like they currently run the pump about 9 hours a day, fwiw .

I'll order the tf100 test kit and the 1766 salt test kit or whatever it's called.

The galvanic corrosion concerns me some since I'm basically building a big battery, so I don't think the sacrificial anode could hurt. Just need to figure out which kind and where.

 

[Jimrahbe]

K,

A 40K SWCG in your pool will produce about .27 ppm of FC per hour. Most pools use 2 to 4 ppm of FC per day. With a use of only 3 ppm per day you will have to run your pump for 11 hours and have your SWCG set to 100% output to generate enough FC to stay stable...

As long as you are ok with running your pump 12 hours a day, then using the AQR15 will work for you.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[domct203]

Welcome to the forum.

If this were my pool I'd step up to the IC60 if it's in the budget.

SWG cell's only make so much chlorine over their lifespan. A cell running 5 hours a day is going to last a lot longer than a cell running 10 hours a day.

 

[kchinger]

The apparent lack of a warranty on DIY installs for the Pentair has me a bit suspicious. The replacement also looks considerably more expensive than the others.

The Circupool rj60 looks like it gets good reviews, similar price, but supposedly lasts much longer, and will actually give a warranty to me. Maybe I need to read about that one more.

 

[Jimrahbe]

K,

There is nothing "suspicious" about Pentair's warranty policy.. Their primary customers are Distributors and Pool Builders.. not individual pool owners.

CircuPool gets good reviews here and their primary customer is individual pool owners, so their warranty policy makes more sense for them. If I were to buy a standalone SWCG system today, I would be looking hard at their products.

Jim R.

 

[domct203]

K,

There is nothing "suspicious" about Pentair's warranty policy.. Their primary customers are Distributors and Pool Builders.. not individual pool owners.

CircuPool gets good reviews here and their primary customer is individual pool owners, so their warranty policy makes more sense for them. If I were to buy a standalone SWCG system today, I would be looking hard at their products.

Jim R.

^Good Post^

 

[kchinger]

K,

There is nothing "suspicious" about Pentair's warranty policy.. Their primary customers are Distributors and Pool Builders.. not individual pool owners.

CircuPool gets good reviews here and their primary customer is individual pool owners, so their warranty policy makes more sense for them. If I were to buy a standalone SWCG system today, I would be looking hard at their products.

Jim R.

Suspicious was perhaps the wrong word, wary maybe.

Installing these things doesn't exactly appear to be rocket science though, plumb it in following the directions, hook it up to a circuit of appropriate voltage, call it a day. I don't know what part of that makes them unwilling to stand behind their product.

Regardless, I'm definitely leaning towards the rj60 now.

I think since some people swear the anode is required and others don't, it's worth the $100 for me not to worry about it. I'll look around online and see if I can figure out where the best location is. I'm an electrical engineer, but I don't really do batteries, at least not internally.

Thanks.

 

[Catanzaro]

There have been a lot of replies, but I will answer a few questions.

1) A test kit is always needed, whether you use tablets, liquid, or an SWG. Additionally, you should purchase a Taylor K-1766 test kit for salt.

2) Your sacrificial zinc anode, IMO should be at the pump in moist soil. It can be placed in the water, but could causing staining long term. Had issues with screws a few years ago, and they were resolved after the Zinc Anode. That was with liquid chlorine. Now, I added salt and this is where the zinc anode will prove its effectiveness.

I will send you the link tomorrow, along with pictures. Please note that the zinc anode needs to be attached to the bonding wire. In addition, the SWG control box has a bonding screw that is attached that same way to help with corrosion as well. (Read that in the manual).

 

[kchinger]

There have been a lot of replies, but I will answer a few questions.

1) A test kit is always needed, whether you use tablets, liquid, or an SWG. Additionally, you should purchase a Taylor K-1766 test kit for salt.

2) Your sacrificial zinc anode, IMO should be at the pump in moist soil. It can be placed in the water, but could causing staining long term. Had issues with screws a few years ago, and they were resolved after the Zinc Anode. That was with liquid chlorine. Now, I added salt and this is where the zinc anode will prove its effectiveness.

I will send you the link tomorrow, along with pictures. Please note that the zinc anode needs to be attached to the bonding wire. In addition, the SWG control box has a bonding screw that is attached that same way to help with corrosion as well. (Read that in the manual).

I don't think there is soil under my pump. It's in a small pool shed which I think has a concrete floor with small openings just for the lines, but there's sand or spilled DE or something on the floor and it's a little hard to tell. I don't own the house yet so I haven't tried digging down.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Installing these things doesn't exactly appear to be rocket science though, plumb it in following the directions, hook it up to a circuit of appropriate voltage, call it a day. I don't know what part of that makes them unwilling to stand behind their product.

Says.. the Electrical Engineer... All you need to do is read through a lot of our old threads and you will find a multitude of reasons why most major manufacturer's of Pool Equipment don't particularly like the average everyday Joe installing their equipment. It is hard enough to find enough qualified technician and installers.

My "pull-it-out-of-my-rear-guess" is that Warranty claims would triple if they encourage DIY installations. And that 95% of those claims would be bogus.

Good luck with your project, sounds like fun...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[kchinger]

I went ahead and ordered the CircuPool RJ-60. I think it'll be better in the long run.

Also ordered my TF-100 and K-1766 test kits (plus a thermometer since I was at $97 at TFTestKits and wanted the free shipping).

My heater manufacturer recommends a check valve between the SWG and the heater, so I'll get one of the Jandy ones (already have one in the plumbing, between the filter and the heater). I guess I'll keep reading about the zinc anode and see about that.

Thanks for the help, I think with the help here I should have a nice place for the family to swim without breaking the bank.

 

[Jimrahbe]

K,

Sounds like a great plan to me...

Jim R.

 

[Catanzaro]

I don't think there is soil under my pump. It's in a small pool shed which I think has a concrete floor with small openings just for the lines, but there's sand or spilled DE or something on the floor and it's a little hard to tell. I don't own the house yet so I haven't tried digging down.

Only the anode needs to be buried in soil. If you can drill a hole big enough for a copper wire (which is pretty small) through the pool shed and then reroute the wire to outside in the ground, this will work. You could also look at alternatives in the water.

Below is the link: Please read through the whole thing and then I can answer any questions. My anode is hooked up to the bonding wire of the pump and it under the red stone until the end, in which then the zinc anode is underground. Length should not matter. The whole pool is bonded, so every metal in the pool (screws), ladder, hand rail, steel walls, are all hooked up together and back to the equipment pad through the bonding wires. Remember bonding is not grounding. Real neat article and I could have not done this without Chem-Geek. Although, Hayward did point me in this direction. My screws started rusting 1 year later. Then a new set from PB (gratis!) within one week. New screws from Hayward with Anode (nothing). This had to do the trick and it could have not been the original screws as this occurred later on. I am picky about swimming with goggles underwater once in a while to inspect the liner. In addition, the water is so clear, you can see any imperfection and I picked this up by eye.

Sequence of chemicals and possibly any effects on what happened to screws at light.

 

[kchinger]

Only the anode needs to be buried in soil. If you can drill a hole big enough for a copper wire (which is pretty small) through the pool shed and then reroute the wire to outside in the ground, this will work. You could also look at alternatives in the water.

Below is the link: Please read through the whole thing and then I can answer any questions. My anode is hooked up to the bonding wire of the pump and it under the red stone until the end, in which then the zinc anode is underground. Length should not matter. The whole pool is bonded, so every metal in the pool (screws), ladder, hand rail, steel walls, are all hooked up together and back to the equipment pad through the bonding wires. Remember bonding is not grounding. Real neat article and I could have not done this without Chem-Geek. Although, Hayward did point me in this direction. My screws started rusting 1 year later. Then a new set from PB (gratis!) within one week. New screws from Hayward with Anode (nothing). This had to do the trick and it could have not been the original screws as this occurred later on. I am picky about swimming with goggles underwater once in a while to inspect the liner. In addition, the water is so clear, you can see any imperfection and I picked this up by eye.

Sequence of chemicals and possibly any effects on what happened to screws at light.

Okay, the chemistry makes sense if everything is bonded properly.

I'll try burying one by the heater/pump using the bond wire in there. The heater is the item I'm most concerned about, so I think placing it off the bonding connection of the heater is probably ideal. I'll run the wire outside if the floor isn't dirt.

I wish I'd have visibility of the inside of the heater to make sure it's all good.

I think I'll reach out to Raypak anyway to verify what they think.

Thanks.