SWG with variable Chlorine and dropping salt levels?

I've had success by doing it nightly - Raise FC significantly above shock level - thus the 28 vs 20 requirement and then repeat every night until no movement in FC. I've done it this way only because of work schedule. It may take a few nights, but it does work. Trust me, i'd love to quit my day job!
 
I understand work schedules, I work 10-11 hours a day, M-F.

When I had to SLAM a couple of years ago, I would test and dose before I left for work (4:30am), as soon as I got home (4:00pm), after dinner, (6:30pm or so) and after the kids were in bed (about 9:00pm). I would also brush at least 1 time a day.

Boy was that incentive to keep my pool properly sanitized!
 
its funny, their pool has been crystal clear since I started helping them. One would never think they had a biological problem.

So why do SWG's require CYA in the 70-80 ppm range? Is it really that critical to be that high? I've read the pool school water balance for SWG's and it says "Second adjust CYA to between 70 and 80. The biggest mistake that many SWG owners make is NOT having enough CYA in the water! This can create a lot of problems like high acid demand, algae outbreaks, cloudy water, or early cell failure." I guess I have just accepted this as gospel as I haven't had any problems with my pool's water chemistry, but I can't answer their "Why" question.

Right now they are taking advantage of their low CYA at 50 and they don't need to get the Chlorine to 30+/-, but once I get this problem figured out, they should raise CYA and Lower TA. Started on the TA today by adding a gallon of Muriatic Acid and aerating. They are at 210, its going to be a long road to reduce that.
 
Excellent, sounds like you're making progress. Maintain, maintain, maintain is key to a SLAM. Brushing is also very helpful, along with ferreting out the algae hiding places.

There are a couple of reasons for higher CYA in a salt water pool. The easily defended reason is because it reduces FC consumption, which enables shorter run time and longer cell life. If SWG bubbling contributes to increased aeration (not everyone agrees on this), then shorter run time would also reduce acid demand. Manufacturers have traditionally recommended higher levels because they see higher FC output at higher CYA with the same electrical energy, suggesting better efficiency in the cell. But no one can explain that phenomena chemically, and experiments by a member here suggest this does not occur, so it's generally ignored. Some manufacturers no longer suggest the higher level in order to align with typical industry recommendations, but many SWG manuals still suggest 60-80 ppm CYA.

No, raising CYA to 70-80 ppm is not critical, it's just the best recommendation available, because it reduces cell run time. You can run a salt water pool effectively using TFPC principles as low as 30 ppm CYA. Below that, it's very hard to know the CYA level because the test is unreadable below 30 ppm CYA. Conversely, some TFPers without SWGs also use a higher CYA level to reduce their consumption of chlorine, but they know why they're doing it, and the risk if they need to SLAM. Further details can be found in a thread I'll link at the bottom of this post.

For TA reduction, you have three broad options. At high TA, many people find it challenging to add acid as often as required, so they lower TA, which slows down the pH rise. If the water is causing scaling, then TA reduction may be the best way to get the water balanced.

The first option is to ignore it, balance the water by keeping it at a lower pH, and add acid as often as necessary to maintain the balance. TA will come down over a relatively longer period of time.

The second option is to drop pH to 7.0 or 7.2 each time acid is added. TA will come down a bit faster. Call it medium speed TA reduction.

Or you can do it all in one or two days by dropping the pH to 7.0, aerating to bring it back up to 7.6, then acid back down to 7.0, aerate again, and repeat as needed. This is the fastest method, and is described here: Pool School - Lower Total Alkalinity

Over time, approximately the same amount of acid will be needed to achieve a particular target TA using any of the three methods. But the sooner TA is down, the sooner that you would be able to stretch out the time between acid additions.

This thread may break your brain (it sure does mine!), but there are well-labeled sections that provide the in-depth why's :). Pool Water Chemistry
 
Thank you for the help.

I see the CYA going up in their future.

I've had to drop TA once, but i only had to drop it 30-40 ppm. Never had it as high as 210. We put one gallon of Muriatic Acid into the pool Sunday, had them run their pool slide until pH was back into the 7.5-7.6 range and the TA dropped to 180. I told them that this process is slow and they don't necessarily need to lower it all in one attempt. They loose a lot of water with the kids going in/out of the pool for the slide, so it may be a combination of a few more gallons of acid combined with water replacement that gets the job done.

Interestingly, the HCl did add ~150 ppm of salt. So muriatic acid is Hydrochloric Acid - 20 baume HCl. Will the Cl ions be available to react with the SWG after it lowers the pH. Chemistry is not my specialty.
 
Another 2.5 ppm drop of FC last night from 22 to 19.5 ppm. CC = 0 - and has been 0 for last several days.

I was there on Sunday, the pool was swept and the water was and remains crystal clear.

Is it possible that since they ran for a year with a chlorine problem that there could be a biological slime on the cartridge filters and inside walls of the piping system that we are killing?

I'm used to seeing the dead growth kick up as a white cloud on the bottom of the pool when sweeping. They have not had these clouds kick up during this process.
 
I don't know if that's possible, but I would definitely clean the cartridges now that you're near the end of the SLAM.

Don't take me wrong, I can only guess, but for completeness, the most common things seen at this stage include: hidden algae farm, for example under ladder rungs, behind the skimmer weir, inside wedding cake steps, inside light niches, water features, and so on, where algae can get a wee bit of light; another is adding chlorine and assuming the start point of an OCLT is a particular number based on the math, rather than waiting for the chlorine to mix and then testing, or sampling too early in the evening or too late in the morning, or without mixing time from the pump; or a source of contamination coming into the pool at night, such as garden runoff from irrigation. I'd say the first one (hidden algae farm) is the most common. Just food for thought, cause it sounds like you're making great progress.
 

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