New Construction: Cathedral City CA

The “pool cleaning guy” showed up around 6pm. It did not take long to get the pool looking much better. Though he vacuumed the bottom first then brushed the walls and steps afterwards, which seemed to let more sand fall to the bottom. The wind was still blowing pretty strong, so there was some sand still blowing and getting inside the pool.

He pulled the basket out of the skimmer and plugged his hose directly in one of the two holes inside. I thought someone from the PB company mentioned that there was somewhere else inside the pool that a vacuum hose could be plugged into, There is one on the opposite wall of the skimmer, that seems to have some suction, but not as much as the one inside the skimmer.


He used a wheeled vacuum like the one below and did a basic test with a 5 in 1 litmus test strip. He said the pool needed some acid and poured a bit in. He’s scheduled to come twice a week. I'll start testing the water with my test kit with real pool water starting tomorrow.

Screen Shot 2018-04-06 at 8.01.39 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2018-04-06 at 8.39.23 PM.jpg
 
The port opposite the skimmer, does it have a plastic spring-loaded flap? Or threads, like a return port?

Have you had a tour of the valves on your pad yet?

Your skimmer sounds like mine, where the suction port is under the basket, along with a second port. A sock would collect dust and dirt suspended in water that gets sucked into the skimmer, but how would it help to collect sand that is being sucked up by the vacuum hose? Kim?

Was it mentioned that your drain is plumbed to the skimmer, or to the pad?

And this pool guy, with the test strips. Is he the only one testing the water during your start up?

- - - Updated - - -

PS. That’s the same rake I bought. I like it because it has a sort of flat scoop on the lead edge that can get under things lying on the bottom.
 
DIRK!

Always good to wake up with a message!


“The port opposite the skimmer, does it have threads, like a return port?”


Just checked and yes it does have threads, but not a spring loaded flap. We also have not been given a tour of anything, except when I ask a specific question, I get a partial answer, then they segue (just learned that segway is a misspelling) into many tangents that I’m sure all relate to my question, but having a background in teaching makes it a bit challenging to absorb.

“Was it mentioned that your drain is plumbed to the skimmer, or to the pad? "



No it was not mentioned, but I’m attaching a photo from the construction and I’m thinking that it is connected to the skimmer.

"And this pool guy, with the test strips. Is he the only one testing the water during your start up?”



This guy is just comes for the first 4 weeks, twice a week to clean and “maintain” the pool. There is another pool guy who I think is his “lead” I call him the "Pool Programer”. The contract says they turn the pool over to me after 30 days. But now that I think of it, the pool cannot have the SWG turned on until 30 days, the heater cannot be turned on for 30 days. So, I’m assuming that it will be up to me to “balance”. I think “balanced” to them means the 5 tests on that strip just needs to read “normal”.



Drains.jpg
 
York, Those are what we can "guess strips" LOL NOT what a true pool professional would use :roll: Your PH is the one I really want you to keep track of with your testing right now. Please run and share a full set of tests except the CYA unless you think they added some. There are videos if you are like me and need a visual. https://www.youtube.com/user/tf100testkit?feature=results_main

Vacuum attachment-they skipped the skimmer plate part of the attachment. It looks like this: Amazon.com: HydroTools by Swimline Oly Replacement Elbow Games

Now I don't want your to order this one. It is just an example. You will need to get the one for your skimmer. I will also tell you I have a hard time using these unless my water is almost to the top of my skimmer. I tend to lose prime :( because of this I do tend to stick the hose down the skimmer neck and deal with cleaning my filter extra because of it.............................oh wait! I have a robot vacuum now!!!!! Lil' Kim does all the work now! LOVE it!

Dirk do you think that is a vacuum port? Any idea how those work?

OH and he vacuumed BEFORE he brushed the walls and such? That is what happens when they rush things :( Brush, let it settle THEN vacuum! Kind of like cleaning the house. Start high, finish low.

Kim:kim:
 
Morning Kim! Now nice to see your :kim:!

I'm a bit in overload and need to absorb things a bit slowly today as I tackle my tasks. So just a few questions (and answers) for now.

He did put a bit of what he just referred to as Acid last night at 6:30 (maybe 2 or 3 cups).

What I really want to do is get the pool vacuumed every morning (after windstorms) before he returns on Tuesday. He showed me have the screenlogic in pool mode (some jets in the pool are shooting out water and the spa is spilling over into the pool.

He rested one end of the hose in the spa, then went over to the skimmer and took everything out. I did not pay close attention, I thought he took just the basket out, but now i realize there is another "thing" under the basket - under that are two pipe openings. One has suction.

He then said "this is a trick ... " He placed his mouth over the end of the hose and "sucked" for just a few seconds. He said this did something that sped up the process. After he saw some change in the floating hose (I did not see any change), he pushed the end on the hose in the suction skimmer hole. After a short while the jets in the spa stopped, the water stopped spilling into the pool, and (over the blowing wind), I could hear the pump (or something from the equipment pad (on the side of the house) make a lot more noise. I think he said it was getting primed or something. I think he said after a few moments if will get a lot quieter. He again pointed to the floating hose in the pool I said something like "see the bubbles"?

Nope I saw nothing.

He went to the spa, attached the vacuum and the clean up started - how had could that be ... for me to duplicate this morning...? Well since the pool is still dirty ... fairly hard I guess.

I did all of the above, not sure if I "sucked"enough, geeze it's a 50 foot hose. I stuck the hose in the correct pipe/hole. The spa stopped spilling into the pool, the noise from the pad increased (sorta scary, was worried that I might be mess'in something up). I waited, 30 sec, 60 seconds (well that is what it felt like), but I never felt any suction from the other end of the hose - nor did I hear the sound from the pad lessening.

Fearing that I might damage something, I put everything back, it took maybe 2 minutes (or so) for the spa jets to come back on...

WHAT I am doing work? I'm I just not waiting long enough for the suction to begin?
SHOULD the hose be filled with air or water first.

Here's photos
IMG_2104.jpgIMG_2101.JPGIMG_2102.JPGIMG_2103.JPG
 
My caveat first... I'm a general contractor, but not a plumber, and definitely not a pool plumber. I've done a lot of plumbing, that's all I can claim. So hopefully someone that knows more about this than me can corroborate. I'll just share what I know to be true about my pool, which sounds a lot like your pool, but I can't know that without looking at it.

If you have a port that is drawing water (sucking) when the pump is on, and it has threads like a return, and it is close-ish to the surface, that is most likely your vacuum port. Was a vacuum port spec'd in your plan?

So, a vacuum port without an approved cover on it violates code. ANSI code for one. You'd have to check with your building dept to figure out which code is the governing one, but regardless, an exposed suction port is dangerous, in terms of both entrapment and evisceration/disembowelment. There is supposed to be a safety flap. And another part of the code states that you're not supposed to apply suction to a vacuum port unless actively vacuuming with it. And there are not supposed to be humans in a pool with an exposed vacuum port. I'm paraphrasing from memory. All common sense one doesn't need a code for. You'll find similar warnings and codes if you google it.

I think my safety flap gizmo, which screws into my vacuum port threads, probably came with my Rebel vacuum (not sure, didn't install that myself). So that might be why yours is missing. And why the PG is using the skimmer, because there's nothing to attach his hose to at the vacuum port.

If it's like my pool, there will be a three way valve that balances the amount of flow between the vacuum port and the skimmer port. Sometimes that's done with two separate valves, but a three way is better because that mostly assures that the main pump's intake is open to one or the other, as opposed to both getting inadvertently closed somehow and then choking the pump.

I asked about the drain plumbing because if your drain is plumbed to the pad, and you have a dedicated vacuum port, you'd find at least three pipes all routing to the main pump: skimmer, vacuum and drain. If the drain is plumbed to the skimmer, then you might find only two at the pad: skimmer and vacuum. All of which should be labeled! Is it? Because you have a spa, you'll have other lines coming into pumps, too. But without examining your pad, I can't say. You may have a dedicated pump for the spa?

So you really need a tour of the equipment. Which they'll probably do at some point. Or you could ask for one now, I suppose. Regardless, that vacuum port should be closed if you and yours are swimming in the pool, either with a flap, a plug or with the valve, or some combination.

Anyway, if your skimmer is like mine, there's two big holes under the basket. One goes to the drains, the other to the pump. The latter is used for vacuuming. A sock won't catch the sand, because you have to remove the basket to get at the holes. I think there are gizmos that can connect a vacuum and still allow the basket, but unless you know you have one (and why would you, if you have a dedicated vacuum port), then Kim's sock trick isn't going to work for the sand. Personally (and this is where a TFP expert can help), I wouldn't worry about sand going to the filter. That's what its for. Your skimmer, skimmer basket, pump, pump basket and filter, your cleaning system, is designed to collect and trap debris, from the tiniest particle of dust to the biggest of leaves. Whatever makes it past the baskets ends up in the filter. You periodically take the filter apart and remove whatever made it that far. Simple. I'd follow what I learned here: let the filter do it's thing until its pressure gauge increases x amount, then clean it. If that's everyday, then fine. But if not, then no need to do it more often. What is "x amount?" Well, when you fire up your system, you set the desired RPMs for general filtering on your pump and then read the pressure gauge on the filter. That's your "clean filter" number. You monitor the pressure gauge (whenever the RPMs are in "general filtering" mode) until it goes above the recommended amount, then you change the filter and start over. The pressure will change with the RPMs, so in other modes (vacuum, high speed skimming, spa, etc) the pressure reading would be different. So you do your pressure comparison check apples to apples. You'd have to work with the PB to determine those numbers. TFP often recommends the amount of increase to watch for, but I hesitate to offer any numbers without better knowing your particular pool. Maybe someone else here will.

Now if you're talking about a LOT of sand, which is going to have to go through the pumps impeller to get to the filter, then maybe that's a concern? If you don't want any sand in your filter, I think the best option is an inline filter. It goes on the vacuum hose while vacuuming. I saw one on Amazon for about $50.

Regarding the test strips, yikes. We're right back to your best-practice vs PB warranty dilemma. If it were my pool, and I just did this, I'd ignore whatever the PG was telling me about water chemistry, and measure it myself and take charge of the balancing. But I didn't have a contract that stated anything about the PB owning the first 30 days. You have to keep the water balanced, especially now, and you have to let the PG do it?!? With test strips!?! Man. 'nother conversation with the sales guy, I guess. All you can do is express your concern, and the expectation that your water chemistry be determined by a proper test method (not strips) and that the chemistry adjustment be handled appropriately. But what I consider appropriate, and what your PB consider appropriate, will very like be two different things! I performed a drop test (or two) every day. It was only after a couple months that I started, sometimes, skipping a day. First 30 days (or longer) I adjusted chemistry every day. I worked my TA into range. My CH was already in range. I added CYA. I adjusted PH and TC every day. My startup was perfect in that regard. And to the extent that balance is critical to longevity, especially during the first 30 days, I know mine was as good as it gets. I don't see why you can't achieve the same, and expect that from your PB. I wouldn't want that all being done with strips, that's for sure. I think TFP would agree. They don't want everyday testing done with anything but the very best method. Certainly that would apply to the first 30 days! If your PB agrees, then he needs to get the PG on a better program. If he disagrees, well... have the conversation with him first. If it were my pool, I wouldn't let things stand as they are. I'm sure I've said this before: he'll be gone at the end of 30 days and will never look back. You'll be stuck with the results of any mishandled startup, which won't reveal itself until long after the warranty expires.

Other than that, have a great weekend! (Sorry for the Saturday morning downer.)
 
I was writing at the same time as you two. I don't recognize that plate with the rotating flap. If I had to guess, that would go on top of the basket, and then big things sucked up would get caught in the skimmer basket, and Kim's sock trick would absolutely catch the sand. Does that thing sit on the basket?

I don't know what all that spa and sucking stuff is about. Sounds like a lot of trouble. Never having done it, so again just a guess, I'd first try this (kind of what I do when I reattach my Rebel's hose). Attach hose to vacuum head, lower head with hose into the water. That will fill the hose part way. Then continue to push the hose into the water, allowing it to completely fill the hose with water. Then cover the end of the hose with your hand (under water), tightly, and then in one motion quickly move your hand and the hose end into the skimmer. Now you can let go with your hand. As long as both ends stay in the water, the hose will still be full of water. Attach to skimmer port, or to that plate thingie, and then fire up the pump. I suppose this could be done with the pump running, but with that plate in place that might be a bit of a hazard. I would think that would start your vacuum without any air involved, and without having to reprime the pump, wouldn't it? Not sure what the PG method is accomplishing. Anyway, if that's all crazy talk, I'm sure there are 100 YouTube videos describing the best way to start a skimmer/vacuum.

All that said, you need something like this, and then you can get your vacuum port working, and abandon the whole hassle of vacuuming through the skimmer:

Amazon.com: Pentair GW9530 Vac Port Snap-Lock Wall Fitting Replacement Pool and Spa Cleaner: Garden Outdoor

You'll need to learn how to engage the vacuum port and shut off the skimmer port, so that you get all the flow through the port. Just be sure to reverse the valve when done, before you remove the hose, so you don't starve the pump. The pump should be off anyway, whenever you manipulate any hoses and ports and valves, just to be safe.

With the safety flap, and proper valving, then your pool will be safe as well as clean.
 
Oh shoot, sorry. That plate might be the drain diverter. Erase, erase. Closing that flap would then draw all the water from the drains. Open, all through the skimmer. Part way open, then water through some of each. My bad. That wouldn't go on top of the basket. And I don't think that Kim's gizmo would work, either, because with the drain plumbed to the skimmer, the water would just be drawn through the drains, not through that attachment (path of least resistance). That's why the PG removed all that and stuck the hose directly into the port below the basket.

But the rest of my method would work (filling the hose, etc), you'd just have the basket and diverted removed, and stuff the full hose into the suction port in the skimmer.

Best to figure out the valves, get the proper vacuum port fitting, and vacuum through there. Maybe buy one at a local pool store so you can take it back if it doesn't fit.

I know this is all a lot to take in, and the PB should really be the one to get this all working for you. But if you take it on yourself today, the only thing you have to avoid is closing off the main pump, which would pretty much only be done if you moved the three-way valve to full vacuum position, with the safety flap closed (no hose in place) and turned the pump on. These pumps are supposed to have an internal safety that shuts them down if there's no flow. But if you're not comfortable with all this, then wait for the PB to walk you through it all.

- - - Updated - - -

Show us a picture of the plumbing in front of the main pump, if you can.
 
You've got something like this, I think. Sometimes it's just a diverter, under the basket, other systems include a float valve that automatically draws from the drains if the water level drops below the skimmer. That plate looks to be the trimmer valve, and nothing to do with vacuuming (except that it can't be in there if you use the skimmer for vacuuming, as I said).

A bit of the blind leading the blind! But until someone else comes along, I'll try to help you figure it out!

1.jpg
 
Wow Dirk .... I truly had to skim, and put it in my ... absorb later. BUT I did check the threaded port on the opposite wall of the skimmer. Currently the system is on Pool mode, the spa is flowing over and there is NO suction coming from that threaded port. I do understand the safety implications and have placed it on my punch list for the PB.

Right now I'd just want to vacuum using the method the PG did yesterday (using the suction portion of the skimmer). My question above was

- how long should I wait to start feeling suction once I connect the hose to the skimmers suction port? 2 min 5 minutes?
- if it takes too long to start feeling pressure - can it damage the pump?

for future reference - here is what the pipes look like going into the main 3 hp vs pump

View attachment 74625
 

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So it looks like it goes like this from top to bottom of the skimmer:

-basket
-plate

Guessing that teardrop shaped piece moves to cover this hole or that hole. I think that is to divert the water from the main drain or to it.

Dirk has the way to get the vacuum going. The only think I do is leave the pump running while I do it to help me make the connection.

-hose attached to vacuum head in the water with pole attached and secured so it does not float off (guess how I learned this one :roll:)

-feed the hose down into the water going as straight up and down as you go down as you can

-as you get to the end of the hose go slow so you lose it making sure water comes all the way out when you get to the end.

-stick the hose into the skimmer.

I go through the skimmer face instead up and over to the top as I just have not found a way to keep the water in the hose.

Another idea is to have the pump running and put the hose in front of a return to push the water through the hose. Just know the vacuum head may rush up some as the water fills the hose. You then take the open end of the hose over to the skimmer and plug it in BUT making sure to not bring it above the water's surface.

Good luck and let us know what works for you.

Kim:kim:
 
Thanks Kim and Dirk,

I sent a text to the Sales Rep asking to call me about this - though historically he is not very responsive on the weekends, and the office is closed until Monday - at that point there will be a crew here.

I tried filling up the hose with the jets and was successful. When I put it in the suction port of the skimmer, it seemed to quickly "grab" on to the hose, seemed much different (better) than before.

The spa stopped over flowing and the pump seemed to not make much noise - again better than before. I started.

I started with a brush/vacuum attachment and it looked like I hit pay-dirt (pun intended) the sand was getting picked up (not as good as with the 19" wheel vacuum the PG had but t was working ok. I sigh of relief, but after about 20 minutes I realized it was not sucking as well, perhaps I was just pushing the sand. I realized that the overflow of the spa was spilling into the pool a bit, I checked to see if the suction slipped out - but in fact it seemed to gotten sucked further down the pipe. it took some force to pull it out.

The worse part of the sand is out. It this point, I'm burnt out and need to chill for a while. I'll re read all that you two have written. Make my notes, perhaps the sales rep will return my call.

Thanks SO much for your support.
 
^^^^^ What she said! And Kim has the better method, if you can feed the water-filled hose through the skimmer face, and make the bend down to the suction port, all underwater, then you won't lose prime. The "vac-head underwater, bleed the hose full by slowly pushing it down into the water, plug into port" method is exactly how I connect my Rebel, and the pump doesn't lose prime. You can do it with or without the pump running. If it's running, just don't get your hand too close to the port.

I think what the PG was trying to do was to use gravity and the pump to fill the hose with water. He sucked on the hose a bit to get some water to flow from the spa into the hose, then relied on the main pump to suck the rest of the air out. As soon as that air hit the pump, that's when all the other water in your pool stopped flowing. The pump whined while it was priming. I guess that's a way to go, but if you use the method Kim and I are describing, you won't lose prime. And I suspect it'll all happen a lot faster.

The first time you do it, you'll go "Ah" and then ezpz. You've probable already got it going as I write.

Sorry for all the gibberish. The short version: have the PB get the vac port working for you, and make it safe, and show you how to use it, and have him start testing properly and balancing the water correctly and often, or allow you to do it yourself.
 
We were writing at the same time again. If you reread, and can make heads or tails out of what I was writing about the filter pressure, you can use that. If everything else is working, and you start vacuuming at one filter pressure, and vacuuming slows and the filter pressure is now much higher, than that's telling you that what your vacuuming is clogging the filter. Again, nothing wrong with that, that's what it's supposed to do. But if you're sucking up so much stuff that the filter is clogging that much, then you're going to have to clean the filter each time. Or use the inline filter I described earlier.

Something that looks like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-W530-Capacity-Canister-Replacement/dp/B001E2D62W

But one that fits your hose and has a filter bag fine enough to trap the sand. Which may or may not exist. These inline filters are primarily for catching big leaves, and allowing the smaller stuff to go on to the main filter. That's how most like this are used.
 
That pic of your pump plumbing didn't show on my computer.

I reread your last post, about the spa not overflowing. That seems strange, as just connecting a hose full of water to the skimmer port should not stop what's going on with your return flow, not that much, anyway. Maybe there's just enough of a differential? Or maybe you got air in the line, and that got into the pump and slowed the flow a bit? Not sure. I think working the hose by pushing it down into the water, and making sure not to trap any air, before you connect it in the skimmer might work better than trying to flush air out with the return. Hopefully they'll sort it out for you on Monday and show you how to work everything.

Have a good Sunday (I'll leave you alone, to relax and enjoy your pool!!)... ;)
 
I am glad it worked better! At least you got some/most? of the sand out!

You are doing a good job taking care of our new baby pool! Keep asking questions and learning. Make sure to run everything by TFP first to make sure it is the best practices.

Enjoy your pool! Go sit by it with your morning coffer and just enjoy the view!

Kim:kim:
 
Today's Update: The Sales Rep (SR) said he told the Pool Guy (PG) to call me regarding not being able to vacuum, I sent another text 2 hours later to the SR saying the PG never called. I've decided to chill on worrying. I imagine that if there is any staining they just intend to do an acid wash - but not sure.

Here are the results of my tests. Not sure how often I should be testing any or all of these tests at this time.

pH - 7.8Cl - .5
Br - 1 (actually the water was clear no yellowish tint)

CYA - no result (the water in the tester remained perfectly clear, even after filling it to the top)
CH - 160 to 170
FC - no result (when I put the heaping spoon of R-0870) the color remained clear and did not turn pinkish like the video shows. I still tried 10 drops of R-0871 but the color remained clear.
CC - I did not test this since the FC had no result.

TA - 80

 
I really try to stay out of the TFP experts' hair when it comes to water chemistry, but those numbers look bad. Sorry, I know I said I was going to leave you alone today, but I'm not seeing any chlorine, and getting algae in a pool that is still curing is a big bad wolf. I'm going to holler at Kim for you...

Today's Update: The Sales Rep (SR) said he told the Pool Guy (PG) to call me regarding not being able to vacuum, I sent another text 2 hours later to the SR saying the PG never called. I've decided to chill on worrying. I imagine that if there is any staining they just intend to do an acid wash - but not sure.

Here are the results of my tests. Not sure how often I should be testing any or all of these tests at this time.

pH - 7.8Cl - .5
Br - 1 (actually the water was clear no yellowish tint)

CYA - no result
CH - 160 to 170
FC - no result (when I put the heaping spoon of R-0870) the color remained clear and did not turn pinkish like the video shows. I still tried 10 drops of R-0871 but the color remained clear.
CC - I did not test this since the FC had no result.

TA - 80

 
Here I am......Those numbers are not too bad but do need some work. A couple of questions to make sure I know what is going on.

-Are there any tablet/pucks in any kind of tube by the equipment?

-Do you think they added any CYA aka stabilizer? It would be powder like stuff. They might have poured it into the skimmer to get it to the filter.

-What is your water temp?

I am going to share a short thread to make sure you know our "language": TFPC for Beginners

I am also going to share a chart with you: Pool School - Recommended Levels

Use the non-swg levels. As you can see you need FC (free chlorine) in that pool asap especially if your water temp. is over 55 or so degrees. Go looking around to see where YOUR best buy on chlorine/bleach is. If you use bleach make sure it is the PLAIN bleach. No pretty smells or non-splash kinds. Walmart has their "shock" in stock right now at 10%, Target has their house bleach at 8.25%, pool stores may carry liquid chlorine at 11% (you will have to put a deposit down on their jugs. Make sure it is at an easy to get to place. Pick some up and start adding it at least once a day.

Use Pool Math or the Pool App (google store and such) to figure out how much of anything to add.

We will not mess with your CH right now as it will go up as the plaster cures.

Your TA is in a good place for right now.

Don't let the PH go over 8.0. Push it down to 7.5 when needed. Here is a link on what to use for what: Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

Use what I have shared with you as want. I am sharing what I would do if this were my new baby pool. :hug:

Kim:kim:
 
Hi Kim & Dirk, thanks for checking in.

-Are there any tablet/pucks in any kind of tube by the equipment?
The only thing would be the SW cell - I thought that did not start to get used until after the first 30 days - I've attached a photo.

-Do you think they added any CYA aka stabilizer? It would be powder like stuff. They might have poured it into the skimmer to get it to the filter.
On Friday the pool guy vacuumed the pool, did that 5 in 1 test strip and added some liquid acid (maybe a few cups) in the water near the skimmer end of the pool.

-What is your water temp? 72 degrees - Air temp 92 degrees.

At this point I feel that I just need to chill and let the PB do what they want to do. I don't want to do anything that will cause them to point the finger at me. I'm even concerned that I brushed the sand off the steps and sides earlier today, now I wonder if that will be a problem.

The team and most likely the owner of the company will be by tomorrow morning to start the install on the large freestanding patio cover. We'll see what he says.

SW Filter.jpg IMG_2113.jpg IMG_2114.jpg
 

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