What is a VRV suppose to sound like -- what happens if it is bad?

[crablover2]

I have a FAFCO solar system installed about 7 years ago. I am quite a newbie at pool maintenance, but I think I'll be forced to learn and do things myself because the local recommended FAFCO company/installer that we used is not trustworthy or reliable, and is extremely expensive.

What does a Vacuum Release Valve sound like when it is correctly operating, and is there a way to test it? I remember it used to make this sucking noise when the pool pump turned off. We started having leaking from our solar pipes/panels at night. It didn't leak during the day or when the pool pump was working, but in the in the middle of the night, water would leak out of the pipes or panels or somewhere, and we'd have a puddle of wet in the corner where the gutters dumped. I could see wetness on the roof in the morning. But, the leaking started at different times at night, and the wet places were coming from different areas. I have resorted to manually releasing/returning the water to the pool each night to prevent this water from getting out. The noise from the VRV was different (less sucking?) so we thought that might be the problem. We purchased a new one online and replaced it, but it doesn't seem to make any noise. I don't know if the sucking noise is something we are suppose to be hearing (indicating a good VRV), or how do I test the VRV? Do we have to turn 'on' the VRV somehow, or oil it, or something? I know I sound like a complete idiot, but I feel like one. Is it suppose to sound like sucking/noise when it is working? I have no idea if the new one we purchased was actually good, or if the old one was still good and this problem is for a different reason, or what. It's possible it was leaking even when the VRV was making the sucking noise, and we just didn't notice the puddle of water until much later.

I'd like to get this problem fixed. Yes, a reasonably priced pool professional would be ideal, but there are none out here in the San Jose CA Bay Area that I trust. Everyone who owns a pool that I know either does the work/troubleshooting themselves, or grudgingly uses someone but can't recommend them.

This is the biggest problem of the pool right now, we have a bunch of little issues too . I just want to fix this so I don't have to be manually releasing the water every night.

Thanks for any help that anyone can give!

 

[pooldv]

Welcome to TFP!

My VRV makes a weird honking noise and I can hear the water drain down the pipes. You can buy a VRV from Solar Direct, that is where I bought my solar panels. Are you sure the moisture isn't condensation?

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[Fingaling]

I also have the fafco panels. The vrv makes a weird whooshing/honking/sucking sound.

If you leave water in the panels they will often have condensation on them on cool mornings... If they don't leak while running under pressure, they shouldn't leak while sitting.

The vrv is essentially a ball over a hole. When the pressure releases, the ball moves and allows air in so that the water can move down the pipes, this is the weird whooshing sound you hear, picture air quickly getting sucked around a ping pong ball. Then when pressurized the ball covers the hole tightly so air and water can't get in or out. Since it's a moving part it can wear out, but out of the box it would be functional and maintenance free. The vrv shouldn't affect any leak, unless it is the thing leaking.

When you shake or move the vrv, you should be able to feel the ball-valve move inside. If not, if may be defective.

After I turn my pump off every night, I open up the 3-way valve and let them drain for a second or two just so there's some air in them and they're not sitting totally full.

 

[crablover2]

Thanks, I added a signature.

It is definitely not condensation. I see the condensation on the panels/pipes in the mornings, but it doesn't accumulate in our gutter (our gutter is 1/2 full of water when the night-time 'leaking' happens as the gutter is partially clogged). It only leaks at night, and at different times and from different places, which isn't consistent with specific leaking point(s). I 'solved' this problem by manually purging the solar pipes of water at night. Doesn't leak during the day that we've seen (pump on or off).

I no longer hear any sound from the VRV like I used to (that weird sucking sound). When we noticed the leaking happening, the VRV sounded different than before, more like 'wet whooshing', and slower/shorter, sometimes no sound. That's why I thought it was broken. But the new one doesn't seem to make any noise at all when the pump/solar shuts off, so maybe we were shipped a defective one (which we didn't realize). This weekend, we'll shake the VRV to see if we can feel the ball move inside. Thanks!

 

[CJadamec]

Check all the rubber hoses on and pipe joints you might have a leak somewhere that seals itself when the panels thermally expand in the sun. My bet would be one of the rubber hose connectors between two panels. It would be worth your time to make sure the vacuum release is working correctly they can stick shut and not let air in any more.

 

[pooldv]

Good point that it is worth double checking all the hose clamps to be sure they're tight. One other point with the VS pump. I normally run my pump at 1100 rpm for solar standby, recently I bumped that to 1500 when I'm running my heat pump. My VRV won't open and drain the panels when the pump is running at 1500 rpm but it will when it is running at 1100 rpm.

 

[crablover2]

I had been running it at 2100, but my husband wanted me to up it to 2500 thinking maybe it needs more power the push all the water up to our 2 story house. Why would it not work with more pressure? Regardless, we had run our pool pump all ranges of power and it seemed to work before.

We shook the VRV and it seems to have something moving in it. My husband said he checked all the connections and took them apart/reseated them before, but he can try it again. He's thinking of adding another VRV on another easy section of the piping to see if that would help. Yesterday I heard a wet gurgling (not loud whooshing) sound from the VRV. This was after I started manually draining the water from the panels. Is it possible the VRV is full of water somehow and it's not draining out so it can't open to let in air? Like there's a clog somewhere?

 

[pooldv]

If it drains when the pump shuts off then it is fine.

 

[crablover2]

We tried all kinds of things, and nothing is working. I think it may be the way our solar system was installed, possibly it's been leaking like this for years and we just didn't notice (though the VRV definitely sounded louder and different before). I might have thought the pooled leaked water was from grass water sprinklers, but since the CA drought and rationing last year (we didn't water grass at all), the collected water jumped out at us.

We have a split 1 story /2 story house, but we have panels on both the 2nd story and the 1st story part of the house. The pipes go up and down to the 2nd story, and 2nd story pipes go to/from the 1st story. Water from the 1st story has to go back up to the 2nd story to exit back to the pool. The VRV is on the 1st story. I am not sure the water is actually draining off the 1st story, or even the 2nd story for that matter (but no leaking on the 2nd story that we've noticed). My husband is thinking that the VRV is not working correctly on the 1st story. Right now it is gurgling more than making a swooshing noise (but it hadn't been making any noise before, and had been making a long, loud swooshing noise when we thought it was working OK years ago). He thinks that the pressure may not be relieved by the VRV because it's full of water(?) and maybe can't operate correctly? It's on the end of a pipe at the top of a solar panel on the 1st story. Anyway, he's thinking the pressure inside the 1st story pipe maybe is not being relieved enough, and thus pressure is being put on the 1st story pipes/connections. Then at night when it gets colder, the connections, which are weaker than the pipes, opens a bit and water leaks out, relieving the pressure. My husband is thinking of putting a VRV on the 2nd story as then it can't get full of water, but not sure if that would help. But he's really busy right now at work, and doesn't have too much time to deal with this, unfortunately. In the meantime, I'm draining water daily from the 1st story panels via the water release point.

 

[mas985]

I had been running it at 2100, but my husband wanted me to up it to 2500 thinking maybe it needs more power the push all the water up to our 2 story house. Why would it not work with more pressure? Regardless, we had run our pool pump all ranges of power and it seemed to work before.

What is the filter pressure with solar on and at 2100 RPM?

What is the height of the VRV installation?

If the VRV is 25' above the filter, the filter pressure must be at least 14 PSI to keep the VRV closed during operation. Putting the VRV higher means you will need to run the pump at a higher RPM to keep it closed.

However, no matter what, the panels should drain with the pump off. If the panels maintain water with the pump off, they were not plumbed properly. You should not have to manually drain them.

Are the panels leaking at night with the pump off or on?

With a split level installation, I would have separate supply and return lines for each level that are tied to the main riser pipes. Then you could use two VRVs and they would drain independently. But it sounds like they plumbed the two parts in series.

Can you post any pictures of the installation?

 

[crablover2]

The filter pressure @2100rpm is around 15psi, but there are air bubbles. If I up it to 2500, there are no air bubbles & the pressure is ~20psi. So I had been running it at 2500, but it still leaks at night.

The panels do not leak during the day when the pool pump is on. The panels leak at night when the pool pump is off.

This pix is the 1st story where the leaking is occurring. The VRV is on the top left of the leftmost panel.



Hmm, I guess I don't know how this forum works. I've exceeded my pix size quota. So I can't post the continuation pix. I'll try to take a low res pix of the next part of the solar. Here is the continuation pix of the 1st story panels. The green hose is where I manually release the water each night. The pipes on the right take the water to/from the 1st story up to the 2nd story. The 2nd story doesn't have a VRV on it.

 

[mas985]

Forgive me but that is a mess. The way they plumbed those panels, I don't think they will ever drain on their own so water will always be left somewhere in that plumbing. The location of the VRV probably just makes it worse since it is not at either the lowest point or the highest point of the panels. The panels must be able to drain away from the VRV in both directions. Some siphoning can occur within the panels but the pipes are too large to support continuous siphoning.

But I could not see where the pipes come from/to the equipment. Do those pipes connect to the top panels? If so, there is no wonder, the panels leak at night.

How big are the panels on the upper roof?

Here is how to post pictures without using quota: Posting Photo's Tutorial

 

[crablover2]

The solar panels were installed by the official FAFCO affiliated company in my area. I don't trust them to try to 'fix' any pool issues I have.

If you look at the 3rd pix, the pipes go up the side of the 2nd story & up around to the 2nd story roof (look for some white on the top right of the 3rd pix, those are pipes bending around). I have to delete the large pix I took and replace them with low res pix. Then I can add some 2nd story panel pix. I'll try to do that tomorrow. I think there are 2-3 large panels on the 2nd story roof, like pix 1 of the 1st story.

 

[mas985]

I saw those but where are the pipes that go down to the equipment? Are they on the other side of the two story roof?

BTW on the pictures, if you have a hosting service, you can then use image tags pointing to a url which does not count toward your quota. Like this:

[IMG]http://i751.photobucket.com/albums/xx151/account/7fce10b4-0df2-4bba-9e5b-0d0d9d3dd8af_zps0166d4cf.jpg[/IMG]

Or better yet:

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[crablover2]

OK, these are pix of the 2nd story solar panels. Pipes from the 1st story going from the bottom of the 1st pix below to the 2nd story. Then after the 3rd pix below, the pipes go around the roofline on the far side of the 2nd story roof and then down the 2nd story back to the pool pump. Even though I chose low res, I've still exceeded my quota, so I can't add the pix showing the pipes down from the 2nd story (just 2 pipes). I'll have to figure something out. I'm not sure how to tag URLs, unfortunately.

 

[n240sxguy]

If you use tapatalk on your phone, it will host the pics. You can also use photobucket or one of the other photo hosting sites. Then you just copy and paste the link.

 

[mas985]

Basically, the way they set this up, the lower panels may partially drain but I don't think it is going to be very effective. They are counting on some siphoning to occur from the first floor up and over the second floor. This can work to some extent if properly set up. But also, the panels MUST be fully primed in order for the siphon to work properly. Is the pump setup to ramp up the RPM during the priming process for a set amount of time and then step down?

Even if you put the VRV on the second story at it's highest point, the second story panels may drain, but then the first story panels will never drain because air would enter the plumbing breaking the siphon before the lower panels had a chance to drain.

I think the issue with the leak is that there is enough water left in the lower panels such that VRV may be leaking some of that water out if there is not enough pressure to keep the VRV closed. BTW, did you confirm that the leak was coming from the VRV?

In a system such as this, the VRV must be installed at the furthest equal distant point from the equipment. This way the water will drain away from the VRV in two directions at about the same pace so air enters the upper panels at about the same time in the two pipes. This is the best chance of draining at least the most water possible. However, the location of the VRV looks to be in the optimum location for this to happen. So it obviously this isn't enough but that doesn't surprise me.

The only other thing you could do is to put in a very small drain line the sized of irrigation tubing to the point you have the hose right now all the way to the equipment pad and plumb it into the return side plumbing. What should happen is that the tube should remain primed longer than the rest of the plumbing and siphon out the lower panel water albeit very slowly but this should be enough to prevent the VRV from leaking.

 

[crablover2]

Thank you for your detailed explanation. I thought the VRV wasn't working when the pool pump was turned off, not that it was leaking water. I think the piping system is leaking at various different pipe joints in slightly colder temps (it only happens at night). The VRV used to have a very sharp, loud sucking noise when the pool pump was turned off. Now it either doesn't make any noise, or it makes a gurgling sucking noise. But we bought a new VRV online and it also sounds that gurgling or no-noise way. I don't know if that means our 'new' VRV was bad, or if the system is just now bad (and our 1st VRV was fine). My husband thought maybe because the pipes weren't draining (or weren't draining enough) that the pressure inside the tube was different, and when it got cold, the difference in pressure @ low temp increased enough to cause cracks to open up in different joint areas (depending on where water/air was trapped) to allow water/air out. This would explain why there was leaking in completely different areas on the system on different nights.

My husband put a 2nd VRV on the right of the 1st story panels, so now we have 1 VRV on the left top, and 1 VRV on the right top. Would that help? It doesn't prevent the leaking, though. Something in the system must have changed in general. I'm guessing the siphoning was adequate to drain the 1st story panels enough for no leaking in the past. Maybe because the system is older now and the pipe/joints have been put under more pressure, that things are now starting to give way and show how bad the installation was. Or maybe there is a minuscule leak/break somewhere that we can't see during the day (or maybe on the 2nd floor near the top that is very hard to see) that is breaking the vacuum and sapping the siphoning power when the pool pump is turned off. I don't know how to find that, though.

My husband is going to try capping both 1st story VRVs, and instead put a VRV on the supply side on the 2nd story at the highest point. Will that help or cause a big problem? I think you kind of indicated that it wouldn't help the lower panels drain, but he doesn't understand your comment about the VRV being at the longest distance from the equipment to drain in both directions. It would siphon water out the drain side up to the 2nd story. But how would it siphon back to the supply side in the other direction? How does it go through the panels and back to the pump --- isn't there a one-way valve? I think we might just be totally clueless. But we're trying.

I do believe the system has higher RPM at startup/priming -- I think it's ~35psi. I don't know how long or if it's adequate, though. If we see no bubbles, does that mean it's fully primed? If I ran the system at lower RPM, then I would see bubbles.

Thanks again!

 

[mas985]

My husband put a 2nd VRV on the right of the 1st story panels, so now we have 1 VRV on the left top, and 1 VRV on the right top. Would that help?

No that won't help. The water still has to siphon up to the second level which is almost impossible in large pipe. Water always wants to drain downward, not upward. This is why I suggested using a very small line that could perhaps be kept at the same elevation as the bottom of the first floor panels and wrap around the side of the house so the panels can drain downward.

My husband is going to try capping both 1st story VRVs, and instead put a VRV on the supply side on the 2nd story at the highest point. Will that help or cause a big problem?

That won't help either because the second story panel will drain first breaking the siphon on the first floor. The key is to maintain the second floor prime as long as possible so the water is siphoned out of the first floor. But again, that is difficult to do well and in order to have any chance of it working, you need the VRV located on the first floor as far from the pipes that rise to the second floor. But the real issue is the rise to the second floor is at a high point on the first floor. If they had made that rise at a lower point (bottom of the lowest panel), this might work better. That prevents the air from the first floor from breaking the siphon until it reaches the risers.

I think you kind of indicated that it wouldn't help the lower panels drain, but he doesn't understand your comment about the VRV being at the longest distance from the equipment to drain in both directions. It would siphon water out the drain side up to the 2nd story. But how would it siphon back to the supply side in the other direction? How does it go through the panels and back to the pump --- isn't there a one-way valve? I think we might just be totally clueless. But we're trying.

The supply side should drain through the solar valve. The solar valve should have a small hole drilled in it. Some installations will also connect the supply and return pipes with a small bypass pipe to help with this draining.

If we see no bubbles, does that mean it's fully primed?

yes

In the image below, there appears to be a lower roof line that runs below the second story. Could that be used to run the supply and return lines to the lower story from the equipment? That would work so much better than the current setup.

 

[crablover2]

Our house is very convoluted. There is no easy access to the 1st story roof line from the pump pipes. The pipes come from the far right and up the 2nd story. The 2nd story juts further out from the 1st story part of the house. There is a deck and stairs in between, and the pipes would have to cut the 2nd story side and wrap horizontally around quite a distance.



My husband is not quite sure what the solar valve is. Is it possible we don't have one? The solar installation company probably cut corners wherever they could. Are pipes suppose to be SCH80? They used SCH40.