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Thread: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

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    Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    So the electrician on my new build didn't really do anything with the excess wires. The 3 actuators have VERY long cables and a connector at the end. So he didn't want to cut them and try to reattach the connector. Add in the SWG, pump and heater, and I have a birds nest of wires below my panel.

    Any suggestions? I'm going to be building a small retaining wall under the panel to wrap around the upper portion of my pad. I just don't know what to do with this mess of wires.

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    18'x36' vinyl - 24k gal - Intelliflo 3hp VSP - Pentair C&C 420 cartridge filter - IC40 Salt - EasyTouch 8 - ScreenLogic - Raypak 406btu NG heater - Intellibrite 5G ligths - 4 deck jets - sheer descent - X-Stream Slide 2 - TF100 kit - opened spring 2017

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    Mod Squad Jimrahbe's Avatar
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    V,

    The panel has a "raceway" for the low voltage wiring. It would take a little patience, but the wiring you have could be routed up and down into that area.

    I am surprised that your electrician did not do that..

    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimrahbe View Post
    V,

    The panel has a "raceway" for the low voltage wiring. It would take a little patience, but the wiring you have could be routed up and down into that area.

    I am surprised that your electrician did not do that..

    Thanks for posting,

    Jim R.
    For the $2k that he charged me, I'm surprised about that as well

    I know what you are referring to...on the left side of the panel. I'll open it up and see if I can fit it all in there.

    Thanks Jim
    18'x36' vinyl - 24k gal - Intelliflo 3hp VSP - Pentair C&C 420 cartridge filter - IC40 Salt - EasyTouch 8 - ScreenLogic - Raypak 406btu NG heater - Intellibrite 5G ligths - 4 deck jets - sheer descent - X-Stream Slide 2 - TF100 kit - opened spring 2017

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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Just what Jim said, take two screws out and you'll have access to the high voltage part of the panel (of course turn the power off, especially if you aren't comfortable around electricity you'll be exposed to 120/220 voltage in there.) You'll be able to loop the wire up and down in that raceway on the left side, it may get a little tight, but a lot of it should fit in there.

    Greg -
    11K gal, IG Pebble Sheen (Aqua Blue) with sun ledge and attached spa, Pentair Intelliflow 3050 VS/SVRS (3HP), Pentair ET 8 with Screen Logic, Pentair Racer with 3/4 HP booster pump, 400KBTU Pentair Mastertemp, Pentair 60 sq ft DE filter, J&J Intellibrite LED in spa, Zodiac Nature 2 (not used), Stenner pump/liquid Chlorine, build completed in August 2015

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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    You might have a bigger problem than just the wires. Your power company requiers three feet of clear space in front of the electrical meter for access. Your pool heater is in that space.
    See page 30 of the power company access and location requirements for electric meters:
    https://www.duquesnelight.com/docs/d...tion-rules.pdf

    Horst

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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    All done. Worked perfectly. I didn't follow the grey conduit because I think I'm going to add a plastic sheath over the wires to protect them. Thanks again for the recommendation.




    Quote Originally Posted by Horst View Post
    You might have a bigger problem than just the wires. Your power company requiers three feet of clear space in front of the electrical meter for access. Your pool heater is in that space.
    See page 30 of the power company access and location requirements for electric meters:
    https://www.duquesnelight.com/docs/d...tion-rules.pdf

    Horst
    Wow...that's interesting. We haven't had our final inspection from the township yet. Is that something they would fail us on? Will the power company really make me change design (or pay to relocate the meter)? It's not completely blocked...but the heater is definitely in front of the meter.

    I'm texting the builder right now to make him aware of this issue.

    I don't really want to change everything around because of this....but don't want to get a surprise several years from now or when I go to sell the house.

    Suggestions?
    18'x36' vinyl - 24k gal - Intelliflo 3hp VSP - Pentair C&C 420 cartridge filter - IC40 Salt - EasyTouch 8 - ScreenLogic - Raypak 406btu NG heater - Intellibrite 5G ligths - 4 deck jets - sheer descent - X-Stream Slide 2 - TF100 kit - opened spring 2017

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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    I doubt that you would fail inspection. The township inspection looks for compliance with National Electric Code (NEC), they are not concerned with power company rules.
    At least in the short term, you shouldn't have any issues with the power company either. Looks like you have a smart meter, which automatically reports usage. No requirement for anybody to come by and read the meter.

    Horst

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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Just call the inspector and ask him. Most of the time they will help you out. Usually it's 3 ft clearance in front of any electrical panel.



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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Very nice job - that wire clean up looks nice, kind of sad the PB or electrician left you that mess and didn't do a better job of tidying up and protecting the wires. Mine has/had it's own share of issues. Seems most of these companies just want to do bare minimum to make em work and move on. It wouldn't take much to do it really right.
    Greg -
    11K gal, IG Pebble Sheen (Aqua Blue) with sun ledge and attached spa, Pentair Intelliflow 3050 VS/SVRS (3HP), Pentair ET 8 with Screen Logic, Pentair Racer with 3/4 HP booster pump, 400KBTU Pentair Mastertemp, Pentair 60 sq ft DE filter, J&J Intellibrite LED in spa, Zodiac Nature 2 (not used), Stenner pump/liquid Chlorine, build completed in August 2015

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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Bigger issue is the heater being directly under your windows. Potential for ingress of CO. Also looks like a combustion fan for your furnace is there. Might not be good sucking the combustion gas into your furnace.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasong View Post
    Bigger issue is the heater being directly under your windows. Potential for ingress of CO. Also looks like a combustion fan for your furnace is there. Might not be good sucking the combustion gas into your furnace.
    OK...another good observation but not much I can do about this now.
    We don't open those windows so I don't see how CO is going to get into the house.

    The exhaust pipe (6" white and back) that is behind the heater is for our on-demand Rinnai water heater. It's a concentric pipe so the inside (black part) is the exhaust and the outside (white part) is the intake.
    I really don't understand how it doesn't suck it's own exhaust fumes back in but I people smarter than me invented it so I guess it's OK.

    What is the danger that it's sucking combusted gas from the pool heater? It's a sealed system so nothing is entering the house. I suppose it will be slightly less efficient when it's sucking CO because the flame won't be as hot?
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Man, that wasnt very nice of him to leave you with that. Sorry to hear about it.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veccster View Post
    OK...another good observation but not much I can do about this now.
    We don't open those windows so I don't see how CO is going to get into the house.

    What is the danger that it's sucking combusted gas from the pool heater? It's a sealed system so nothing is entering the house. I suppose it will be slightly less efficient when it's sucking CO because the flame won't be as hot?
    Problem is that if a furnace or any other gas (burning) appliance is pulling or using carbon dioxide to try to burn gas, it wont happen. Your furnace will short cycle, or may not even fire. Modern furnaces are real picky about the air/gas mix. If it isn't correct, it wont allow ignition. Especially forced air units.

    If the inspector doesn't have a problem with the fact that your heater is so close to the windows, he should, because there is a liability issue there. One way around that is to make those windows sealed (non open-able). Just "promising" not to open them is not good enough. They must be permanently sealed, so as to make them unable to be opened, ever.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pool Clown View Post
    Problem is that if a furnace or any other gas (burning) appliance is pulling or using carbon dioxide to try to burn gas, it wont happen. Your furnace will short cycle, or may not even fire. Modern furnaces are real picky about the air/gas mix. If it isn't correct, it wont allow ignition. Especially forced air units.

    If the inspector doesn't have a problem with the fact that your heater is so close to the windows, he should, because there is a liability issue there. One way around that is to make those windows sealed (non open-able). Just "promising" not to open them is not good enough. They must be permanently sealed, so as to make them unable to be opened, ever.
    Well, we haven't had an inspector yet so I guess I'll find out. But the home inspector (when we built) didn't have a problem with the Rinnai vent (located just next to the electric meter). That is even closer to the windows - and puts out a lot of combusted gas when it's running.
    The furnace vents are further down the wall. Those should not be a problem. It's the water heater vent/intake that you are concerned about, correct?
    If something is a concern, I guess I can extend the intake further up the wall.

    Unfortunately, there is not much I can do about it now. I'm not relocating my equipment pad. It would be cheaper to replace the Rinnai with an electric tank water heater. And, again, I don't think the furnace vents are a factor.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    The indoor heatets are not an issue with CO because there specifically designed with power exhaust that pushes the gas away from the house. The issue is pool heater with its hot combustion gas rising straight up past the windows. There is no way to seal a window. Every window leaks. You have a potential issue with the gas coming in. The pictures do not show depth and dimension well but most heaters have a specific rewuirement to be xx distance from windows. You can pull out the manual and look.

    Manual shows it must be 3 feet from the AC unit and 4 feet of horizontal and vertical from any opening such as a door or window.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    If this is such a concern why don't you Just extend the vent from the heater vertically above the roof?



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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasong View Post
    There is no way to seal a window. Every window leaks.
    That is a pretty broad statement. I would argue that every window does not leak since most, if not all windows manufactured today must meet some sort of energy efficiency requirement. In the event that the window is new AND in fact does leak, i would be willing to bet that it would not leak enough to be fatal if the window is closed and latched.

    This was taken from Raypak install and operating manual (RP2100).
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pool Clown View Post
    That is a pretty broad statement. I would argue that every window does not leak since most, if not all windows manufactured today must meet some sort of energy efficiency requirement. In the event that the window is new AND in fact does leak, i would be willing to bet that it would not leak enough to be fatal if the window is closed and latched.

    This was taken from Raypak install and operating manual (RP2100).
    Thank you for the information. I really appreciate this.

    I checked last night and the Raypak is about 5' below the bottom of the window (vertically). It's only about 3' horizontally away from the house.

    I'm not at all worried about the windows though. It's a brand new house with Anderson windows...in a room that we are rarely in (formal dining). And we have carbon monoxide detectors in the house.


    However, I am a bit concerned about the Rinnai Water Heater intake. It's a compound power vent design. So the middle of the pipe forcibly exhausts combusted gas while the bottom part is the intake. The intake is a bit close to the top of the Raypak and may suck in combusted air. Almost need a small divider to create separation. I'll snap a picture of it tonight to post.

    It's not a danger for health or safety...only a concern about the efficiency or operation of the Rinnai water heater.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veccster View Post
    However, I am a bit concerned about the Rinnai Water Heater intake. It's a compound power vent design. So the middle of the pipe forcibly exhausts combusted gas while the bottom part is the intake. The intake is a bit close to the top of the Raypak and may suck in combusted air. Almost need a small divider to create separation. I'll snap a picture of it tonight to post.
    I'd be a bit concerned about that too. Concentric venting works just fine on its own, but having another exhaust right near it (in fact, heading straight for the outer intake portion) would not really be good.

    Electrical meter blockage is an issue. Some utilities will cut service for this until it's corrected, once they find out. Additionally, that equipment pad might be placed over the underground service run, which could violate their rules (I'm not sure about Duquesne). Some want turf-only coverage so they can get to the drop if needed.

    I'd get all this verified before making any final payments to your contractor... might have really messed up on this one.
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    Re: Wire management....where to put this birds nest?

    Quote Originally Posted by drharris View Post
    I'd be a bit concerned about that too. Concentric venting works just fine on its own, but having another exhaust right near it (in fact, heading straight for the outer intake portion) would not really be good.

    Electrical meter blockage is an issue. Some utilities will cut service for this until it's corrected, once they find out. Additionally, that equipment pad might be placed over the underground service run, which could violate their rules (I'm not sure about Duquesne). Some want turf-only coverage so they can get to the drop if needed.

    I'd get all this verified before making any final payments to your contractor... might have really messed up on this one.
    Hi...thanks for your input.

    I'm not concerned about the meter blockage. If they HAD to get to it, they can. But it's a smart meter....they don't even have to get near it to read. It's VERY unlikely that they would need to access it. IF they did for the rare case that something went wrong (and they're not OK with reaching over the heater), then the heater can be removed while they perform their work. That wouldn't be a big problem.

    Relocating the heater to another location WOULD be a big problem. There is really no where else to put this equipment pad.

    If the electric service run is in-fact an easement, then that's the risk I'll run. It would be extremely rare that a brand new service run in a brand new neighborhood needs to be dug up. And even then....good chance than could go under the pad.

    I'll look at the intake relative to the exhaust on the heater tonight. I may even turn on the heater (hasn't been done yet) just to see what the exhaust is like and how close it gets to the intake on the rinnai.
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