Seperate pump for heater

[buballodingo]

Hi all,
My pool was built a year and a half ago now and my heater was linked to my pool pump which runs on timer. I soon ran into a couple of issues:

1. The the pool filter (on timer) had to be running for the heater to be working;
2. As I have an electric heater it takes time to heat the pool, so if I need to heat for an extended period the water would be over chlorinated by the SWG.

Recently the pool guys installed a ZZB1635 Waterco Heater Controller which to be honest was supposed to resolve the issue. It didn't as I had the same functionality of the top out temp and operation without it.

Recently they said they would install a second pump so the heater could run independently of the filter. My pool configuration is a centred skimmer with 2 pool returns.

I am currently waiting for this to be done. I just wanted to make sure what they are saying is actually possible with the current pipework. There will be times that the filters pump and the heater pump will be running simultaneously so the skimmer and returns will be shared...Is this possible?

How else can I get my heater to come on without filter operation when required without manually setting it on the filter? I use the pool during the colder months too.

Thanks for any help.

 

[ps0303]

My opinion is this is overkill. If you have to run your pump all day/night for the heater then you should turn down your chlorinator. Adding another pump is just a waste, in my opinion. I have people asking me to consolidate two pump systems into a single pump system, not adding a pump. What you are doing currently heating your pool is done my millions of pool owners every year. Just turn your chlorinator down some and you'll be fine.

Also consider this, if you want the heater to be on when the filter pump is on, you have to run two pumps now. Twice the cost.

 

[buballodingo]

Hi ps0303,
Thanks for your input. Appreciated. My heaters heating capacity is approximately 0.3 degrees per hour on average. So it takes 3 hours to heat a degree. The pump I anticipated just to run the heater will be a smaller pump than I currently have for the filter. In terms of cost, I look at it a bit differently which I may be incorrect:

1. There is an upfront cost for plumping and heating;
2. I assumed running cost will be less or neutral because:
a. as I will have a smaller pump for the heater only;
b. I am not running the SWG at a lower % for a much longer period of time just heat the pool?
c. the filter pump will be running less as it will only be required for pool water circulation and SWG;
d. SWG wear and tear and salt cell replacement for extended running period may or may not be an issue...unsure?

Whilst I understand that I can lower the SWG at any time, what I am trying to avoid is heating controlling when filtration occurs. Currently, the heat controller is set on a time for SWG. Current set up is 8 hours at 70% (with an AM shift and PM shift). Obviously this needs to be adjusted with different seasons and reviewed as I balance and test the water. With the Australian weather even in cooler months we get vast variations in weather that it is hard to predict how much the heater will turn on off etc and the concern here is spikes and dips in the pool balance being determined by the heat control. This process is automated by the heat controller between a minimum and top out temperature.

Yes there will be a time that both pumps run simultaneously and that would be my peak sort of event and cost in that scenario...agreed, but over all would it be more that my current cost..not sure...will need to do more research on the running cost from my end to be honest as they are valid points you make.

Assuming that costs were neutral, the second part of my query is...would it work. Can I have 2 separate pumps off the one skimmer and existing 2 returns, working simultaneously at times and separately at others? How are the pipes split between the 2 in the plant room? My pool is concrete and completely tiles so its not like I can add more returns and another skimmer . Not sure if it helps, but this is a photo of my current setup:

 

[ps0303]

I think your going to run into issues with two pumps on one skimmer. You are going to lose performance when the two are running at the same time. The will be fighting each other.

I would ask if the company talking to you about doing this has done it before and ask to look at previous jobs and talk to the owners about their experience. Don't just take their word for it. Actually visit the places and talk to the people. I have never seen any setup like you are talking about in the US in either residential or commercial.

 

[Ozzy7750]

Do you have a cover on your pool? If not, it might be worth a try?

With a bubble solar cover on mine it only looses about 1 or so degrees celicius overnight. I have a 15kW heat pump and it then gets it back up to my 30 degree c setpoint in less than 1 hour. You might find with a cover the question about two pumps becomes moot

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[buballodingo]

I do...its a remco swimroll poly carbonate cover

Sent from my SM-G928I using Tapatalk

 

[needsajet]

Sharing suction and returns creates a heap of problems to overcome, but to follow up on costs, it would be very hard (likely impossible) to beat the costs of your VS pump because it can be tweaked to just the right flow for the heater, plus it has a high efficiency motor. The SWG cell wears out directly proportional to how much FC is produced, and consumes power to produce FC during the on time. 6 hours at 100% costs the same as 24 hours at 25%, so wear and tear is the same either way.

The system would normally be done with one pump here as well. An exception is when separate heating intakes and returns were included in the original construction or dug in later.

In your case, the pool temp will be most affected by the average temp of the ground (changes very slowly) and to a lesser degree by the average air temp over a period of a few days. You'll find that on a weekly basis, those fluctuations are surprisingly slow. You have evaporative cooling eliminated (the biggest source of cooling) and conductive cooling to the air lessened with the polycarbonate cover, which will work very much in your favour.

 

[JamesW]

You have a variable speed pump. You can just set it to run at a lower speed for a longer time.

Alternatively, you can use automation that will control the heater and pump. It will turn on the heater and pump based on the set temperature. You can put the pump on a timer schedule with heater override.

Don't use a second pump.

 

[buballodingo]

You have a variable speed pump. You can just set it to run at a lower speed for a longer time.

Alternatively, you can use automation that will control the heater and pump. It will turn on the heater and pump based on the set temperature. You can put the pump on a timer schedule with heater override.

Don't use a second pump.

Hi JamesW,
Totally agree. However, I think I am onto something. I have a heat controller and I think it is not wired in correctly. I will check the wiring diagrams to see if I can decipher it and post something.

A question about my heater. My manual does not really clarify it. Is it safe to leave my electroheat mkIII 25 on permanantly and let is come on and off with the filter without the heat controller. It has its own top out temperature setting that will cut it off when the desired temp is reached. Just want to ensure that I will not stuff the heater. When the filter pump is not running the heater display an NF message saying no flow and does not turn on.

Again, I will review wiring diagrams because I am sure there is something wrong with the way they have set it up.

 

[needsajet]

I asked a poolie mate who told me that's the normal way to run them (Set to come on by thermostat checking water temp but won't come on unless filter pump is running. Displays low flow or no flow when heating is needed but pump is not running).

I looked up your manual and there's 3 levels of protection, two that respond to water pressure, and the thermal protection for the compressor and fan motor. I can't see how the heat pump can be damaged by setting it to run anytime there's both flow and temp need.

Sorry, not based on experience, but does have a couple references

The installer or you could call WaterCo and ask them. Then you can just set run time off the SWC timers as usual.

 

[buballodingo]

Thanks needsajet...appreciated...i did a lot of researching and the fundamental issue is tgey have not wired the system correctly. You cant expect a heat controller to be controlled if they havent connected the heat pump to the controller. The reps that came out had no idea unfortunately. The filter pump is commected correctly and therefore operates under timer..they just need to wire up the heat pump and bingo....i will re adjust the swg as per tge suggestions and go from there. Big rain now in sydney after a 38 degree day...pool is full

Sent from my SM-G928I using Tapatalk

 

[needsajet]

The rain drops on the surface make it look cloudy but I don't think it is, right? Glad the heater stuff is coming together

 

[buballodingo]

Yep that the wind and rain..

Sent from my SM-G928I using Tapatalk