I am looking to swap out my single speed pump for a Variable. Pool currently has 3/4HP single speed pump, from the best i can tell the lines are 1 1/2" coming from the pool and then adapter up to 2" at the pump. Also have a booster pump for the Polaris cleaner. would be nice if the controller can control both (dont know if that's possible) Both pumps are currently controlled with a Intermatic PE153 timer. Pool is 22,000 Gallons
Variable Speed Pump Recomendation/Questions
- Thread starter Jason_Strobel
- Start date
- Jan 4, 2016
- 5,289
- Pool Size
- 44000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
Welcome to TFP! Good to have you here 
My post will bump your thread. There's way better experts here than me.
Is the existing pump worn out?
My post will bump your thread. There's way better experts here than me.
Is the existing pump worn out?
It is 7 years old and is making some noises, with California electricity rates i think i can re-coop my investment in about 2 years.
Jason,
As a highly biased Pentair guy, I always recommend the "Gold Standard" of variable speed pumps, the 3 HP Intelliflo. I know you are thinking that 3 HP is way too much... and well, you would be right if the pump was a single speed pump. But with VS pumps the HP is "Max" HP not something that you would be using 99% of the time. Check with your Utility company.. I've read here that a lot of CA power companies will provide a rebate for the Intelliflo.
All the other major brands are probably "almost" as good...
My pump only uses 175 Watts when run at 1,200 RPM. This is the speed I use most of the time. I would run it slower, but my SWCG needs 1,100 to turn on the flow switch.
I just re-read your initial post... Most, if not all, VS pumps have a control panel mounted on the pump. This control panel is what you would normally use to control the times the pump runs and at what speed. For the most part, VS pumps do not need an external timer. Unfortunately (Listen up Pentair!!!) they do not provide an output that could control your other pumps or systems... Would be great if some pump manufacture thought of that!!!
Thanks for posting,
Jim R.
As a highly biased Pentair guy, I always recommend the "Gold Standard" of variable speed pumps, the 3 HP Intelliflo. I know you are thinking that 3 HP is way too much... and well, you would be right if the pump was a single speed pump. But with VS pumps the HP is "Max" HP not something that you would be using 99% of the time. Check with your Utility company.. I've read here that a lot of CA power companies will provide a rebate for the Intelliflo.
All the other major brands are probably "almost" as good...
My pump only uses 175 Watts when run at 1,200 RPM. This is the speed I use most of the time. I would run it slower, but my SWCG needs 1,100 to turn on the flow switch.
I just re-read your initial post... Most, if not all, VS pumps have a control panel mounted on the pump. This control panel is what you would normally use to control the times the pump runs and at what speed. For the most part, VS pumps do not need an external timer. Unfortunately (Listen up Pentair!!!) they do not provide an output that could control your other pumps or systems... Would be great if some pump manufacture thought of that!!!
Thanks for posting,
Jim R.
- Jan 4, 2016
- 5,289
- Pool Size
- 44000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
Yeh, we have high cost power down here too. If the pump is at end of life, it's a great time to upgrade.
I asked because 3/4 HP and 1.5" pipe is a good match and much better than many pools built on the old-school 1.5/1.5 (HP pump/pipe size) which was simple but pushing too much water for the size of pipe. With a 2 speed or VS, you'll probably be able to move roughly half as much water with 1/4 the power, so in very rough terms, 150 watts for twice the time vs. 600 watts at your current pump run time. If your electricity usage rate (i.e. not including fixed service charge) is $0.20 per kWh, that would save you around $175 a year. If your marginal cost is $0.25, that grows to $219 a year. Both assuming the same amount of water moved. I found California usage rates at an average of $0.15 per kWh, but I suppose this varies all over the place.
Pressure cleaners use a fair bit of power, so a different cleaner might be a cost-saving option worth considering as well. I'll bet you already have your pump run time optimized, but if not, there's good resources here for that determination as well.
If you want better/faster skimming or if there's algae spots showing up due to poor circulation, then you should consider higher HP for the new pump. If all is well, then you could consider one of the lower cost VS pumps that max out at around 1 or 1.2 HP. There's some great information here at TFP that suggests that a 2-speed pump is likely to be your most economic option, and it may be possible to upgrade your existing pump at quite low cost. That said, I kinda like tweaking my VS pump, so I'm all for it and if pump HP is high for the pipe, you can always turn it down
All depends on your objectives, and the experts here will give the best recommendation with your objectives in mind.
I asked because 3/4 HP and 1.5" pipe is a good match and much better than many pools built on the old-school 1.5/1.5 (HP pump/pipe size) which was simple but pushing too much water for the size of pipe. With a 2 speed or VS, you'll probably be able to move roughly half as much water with 1/4 the power, so in very rough terms, 150 watts for twice the time vs. 600 watts at your current pump run time. If your electricity usage rate (i.e. not including fixed service charge) is $0.20 per kWh, that would save you around $175 a year. If your marginal cost is $0.25, that grows to $219 a year. Both assuming the same amount of water moved. I found California usage rates at an average of $0.15 per kWh, but I suppose this varies all over the place.
Pressure cleaners use a fair bit of power, so a different cleaner might be a cost-saving option worth considering as well. I'll bet you already have your pump run time optimized, but if not, there's good resources here for that determination as well.
If you want better/faster skimming or if there's algae spots showing up due to poor circulation, then you should consider higher HP for the new pump. If all is well, then you could consider one of the lower cost VS pumps that max out at around 1 or 1.2 HP. There's some great information here at TFP that suggests that a 2-speed pump is likely to be your most economic option, and it may be possible to upgrade your existing pump at quite low cost. That said, I kinda like tweaking my VS pump, so I'm all for it and if pump HP is high for the pipe, you can always turn it down
All depends on your objectives, and the experts here will give the best recommendation with your objectives in mind.
our rates are usually .16 - .20, an upgrade to a VS would qualify for a $350 rebate from our power company as long as its on their qualifying list
https://www.smud.org/assets/documents/pdf/Variable-Speed-Pool-Pump-Eligibility-List.pdf
I am open to the ideas of a different type of cleaner if that is a worth while change.
https://www.smud.org/assets/documents/pdf/Variable-Speed-Pool-Pump-Eligibility-List.pdf
I am open to the ideas of a different type of cleaner if that is a worth while change.
Jason,
Pressure side cleaners are like the old black rotary dial phones your grandparents used to have. Robot cleaners are more like today's cell phones, technology wise. See this thread... https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/120447-First-Robotic-Cleaner-Doheny-s-Discovery
Jim R.
Pressure side cleaners are like the old black rotary dial phones your grandparents used to have. Robot cleaners are more like today's cell phones, technology wise. See this thread... https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/120447-First-Robotic-Cleaner-Doheny-s-Discovery
Jim R.
Thank you, i can definitely see a robotic cleaner in my future now. just gotta get the VS pump figured out.
with 1 1/2" lines, isn't a 3HP VS over kill, will be be able to prime? would a 1.5HP VS be a better choice? I was thinking the Pentair 342001?
Jason,
If you do not intend to have any automation, then the SuperFlo (342001) should work fine. It is more of a stand alone pump, where the Intelliflo is designed more for operation via an automation system.
That said, I have two rent houses that have the Intelliflo pumps. Both of them have 1.5" pipes and they have no issues at all with the Intelliflo. The fact that the pump is 3 HP makes very little difference, because that is the Max HP. My pumps run most of the time at very slow RPM's and as such never come close to the Max 3 HP rating.
If you plan to get a rebate from your electrical provider, make sure which pumps are on their list before buying one.
Jim R.
If you do not intend to have any automation, then the SuperFlo (342001) should work fine. It is more of a stand alone pump, where the Intelliflo is designed more for operation via an automation system.
That said, I have two rent houses that have the Intelliflo pumps. Both of them have 1.5" pipes and they have no issues at all with the Intelliflo. The fact that the pump is 3 HP makes very little difference, because that is the Max HP. My pumps run most of the time at very slow RPM's and as such never come close to the Max 3 HP rating.
If you plan to get a rebate from your electrical provider, make sure which pumps are on their list before buying one.
Jim R.
does anyone have experience ordering from http://www.epoolsupply.com// they have the pentair 11018 pump for a great price.
Jason,
Make sure that you use pump style unions to install any pump.. Like this... http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/custom-molded-21063-200-000-Union-Threaded-2in-MPT-x-2in-Slip-for-IntelliFlo/21063-200-000.htm?xzm2&ecmpid=aw_pla_search_21063-200-000&adtype=paid&gclid=CO-PktvN0dECFYS1wAodB-EPwQ
The threaded side has an O-Ring that eliminates leaks..
Jim R.
Make sure that you use pump style unions to install any pump.. Like this... http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/custom-molded-21063-200-000-Union-Threaded-2in-MPT-x-2in-Slip-for-IntelliFlo/21063-200-000.htm?xzm2&ecmpid=aw_pla_search_21063-200-000&adtype=paid&gclid=CO-PktvN0dECFYS1wAodB-EPwQ
The threaded side has an O-Ring that eliminates leaks..
Jim R.
- Jan 4, 2016
- 5,289
- Pool Size
- 44000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
You can probably change a few things to make it handy. You'll want the control pad on the pump easy to get at, pump strainer easy to look in and remove, that sort of thing. If removing the polaris, you could re-purpose the return or provide for it. I'd leave room for an SWC and consider a FlowViz flow meter, or leave room for it. If it were mine, I'd make a few sketches and imagine operating it. The increase from 3/4 HP to 3 HP changes the electrical load, so i'd check wire size and breaker requirement.
Welcome to TFP! As a fellow Sacramentan, we had a similar setup -- 3/4HP pump that was never quiet and started getting louder, 1.5" plumbing in the ground and a similar size pool.
I'll add to the recommendation for the Intelliflo 3HP. What I did to avoid any issues with the plumbing or electrical was set the pump's max RPM to a value that was pretty close to the wattage of the 3/4HP pump it replaced; I can find out what I set it to. That means that it never exceeds that speed, whether priming or running.
A 2-speed pump can be more cost effective if the 2 fixed speeds happen to be the right ones, but for an old pool that may get future upgrades for solar/heater/SWCG, I think a true variable speed pump is better. If it turns out that, say, 1100RPM is a bit too slow for the SWCG or the solar or to skim properly, you can bump it up to 1200RPM instead of having to go all the way to full speed. And for basic circulation, the VS pumps can run ridiculously slow, quiet, and low energy. To me that was worth the extra couple hundred $$ over a 2-speed pump.
As to your layout, it's not bad -- the pump is in a good position for the control panel (which is positioned for best access from behind the motor). I'd consider rerouting the output from the filter so you don't have to reach over it to get to the basket, but it's not horrible the way it is.
Be aware that there's no direct way to link the Polaris booster and the IntelliFlo without more equipment (or dropping some of the control goodness of the IntelliFlo), so you'll be relying on manually setting the Polaris time to match when the pump is on. With a digital timer that isn't as big of a deal (I have a mechanical timer for the Polaris and have to resync them after having no power for 2 days). I'm also considering a robot also for next year, but our Polaris 280 does a good job with the stuff we get here.
I'll add to the recommendation for the Intelliflo 3HP. What I did to avoid any issues with the plumbing or electrical was set the pump's max RPM to a value that was pretty close to the wattage of the 3/4HP pump it replaced; I can find out what I set it to. That means that it never exceeds that speed, whether priming or running.
A 2-speed pump can be more cost effective if the 2 fixed speeds happen to be the right ones, but for an old pool that may get future upgrades for solar/heater/SWCG, I think a true variable speed pump is better. If it turns out that, say, 1100RPM is a bit too slow for the SWCG or the solar or to skim properly, you can bump it up to 1200RPM instead of having to go all the way to full speed. And for basic circulation, the VS pumps can run ridiculously slow, quiet, and low energy. To me that was worth the extra couple hundred $$ over a 2-speed pump.
As to your layout, it's not bad -- the pump is in a good position for the control panel (which is positioned for best access from behind the motor). I'd consider rerouting the output from the filter so you don't have to reach over it to get to the basket, but it's not horrible the way it is.
Be aware that there's no direct way to link the Polaris booster and the IntelliFlo without more equipment (or dropping some of the control goodness of the IntelliFlo), so you'll be relying on manually setting the Polaris time to match when the pump is on. With a digital timer that isn't as big of a deal (I have a mechanical timer for the Polaris and have to resync them after having no power for 2 days). I'm also considering a robot also for next year, but our Polaris 280 does a good job with the stuff we get here.
Just curious about the electrical supply. What size wire is there coming to the timer now, and how far away is the supply circuit breaker. Looks like a lot of corrosion on the conduits at the ground supplying the timer. Also is that a copper line coming out of the ground feeding the suction line to pump?
wire size appears to be 12awg mostly, supply breaker is about 55 Ft away.
the return and feed lines are metal (pool plumbing is from the 1970's i believe) I know as some point this will need to be replaced
here is a shot of the wiring inside the timer.
View attachment 56540
Attachments
I guess the real question is, is the 3HP 11018 worth it, or should i just go with the 1.5HP 342001?
Jason,
Repeating what I said above...
If you do not intend to have any automation, then the SuperFlo (342001) should work fine. It is more of a stand alone pump, where the Intelliflo is designed more for operation via an automation system.
If you plan to get a rebate from your electrical provider, make sure which pumps are on their list before buying one.
Jim R.
Repeating what I said above...
If you do not intend to have any automation, then the SuperFlo (342001) should work fine. It is more of a stand alone pump, where the Intelliflo is designed more for operation via an automation system.
If you plan to get a rebate from your electrical provider, make sure which pumps are on their list before buying one.
Jim R.